Toronto Outdoor Show

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eagleray2003

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Just wondering what everyone thinks this show will be? Just another Underwater Canada?
It's a shame with all the great diving oppurtunity's in Ontario that a real quality diving show just can't get off the ground.
 
Better than nothing? Could be. Hope not. I guess time will tell. And I agree, apparantly we don't rate high enough on the dive companies scale.................
 
the quality of the show will, IMHO, reflect the publics response to it.
if we all get behind it, then it will turn out to be a good show.
if nobody supports it, an nobody goes to it, then it will whither and die.
 
I detect a note of cynicism Butch.

Do you think the scuba companies including the retailers should put on a diving show in Toronto?
 
I'd be happy with any type of scuba show as long as there is some kinda substance to it.... aaaaack gotta get my scuba fix!!!! I think there was something about the timing of the DEMA show that messed up having a scuba-only show this year.

:livid: <-scuba withdrawal

Build it up right and they will come! Retailers and companies... come on out!
 
It just seemed to me that Butch was expecting the scuba companies 'to put on a show' for the divers.
Neither the manufacturers, the distributors or the retailers have any interest in 'putting on a show'. It costs an enormous amount to set up a show and a lot to even be an exhibiter. I would guess that we spend about $5000 to have a 10 X 20' booth at most shows. Sometimes a lot more.
I've had exhibits at the Sportsmen's Show (from where the Outdoor Adventure Show originated) for over 25 years; we were the exclusive scuba exhibiter at the CNE for many years and have put on several hundred mall shows all over Ontario. The Outdoor Adventure show is pretty good and we've been there each year. The organizers saw an opportunity to capture the diving market when U/W Canada folded last year and are simply trying to increase attendance.

Like it or not, there will never be a successful scuba show until it becomes clear that the divers will attend in large numbers. That is the only reason for putting on such a show. It isn't done for the entertainment of the divers - it's done to make money!
This effort by the Outdoor Adventure show may grow into something worthwhile but that will depend entirely on the results.
Each diving exhibiter has to feel the investment was worthwhile. It becomes particularly difficult when the divers expect to go to a show and get 'a great deal'. The stores that discount heavily then have to sell 3 or 4 times as much to get their return and that seldom happens.
It always amazes me that divers don't understand the prices are actually higher at a show (other than specials or dressed-up packages) than at the store. If you can walk into the store which is already open and staffed every day and buy the item for a certain price, why would it be cheaper at a show when the store has just paid a lot for the space, set up a expensive booth, paid for extra staff and hours, paid for transportation, lunches and a lot more. In other words, you can buy it from me today or, you can wait until I spend $5000 to take it to the show and then buy it from me. Where do you suppose the price will be more attractive?

BTW, I'm sure you're aware that DEMA is not a diver show but is a trade show for the industry. I know a lot of divers go to DEMA but they do not contribute to it's success. The industry members ante up to get together to share their interest in making the scuba business successful. The cost of us attending DEMA is paid for by the divers every time you purchase something.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic.. I'm simply telling it like it is. Successful scuba stores are businesses not drop-in centers.
Your LDS will NOT remain open if it's not making a profit no matter how well you and the owner get along.
 
yep you are bang on....I am cynic, as far as the "ScubaSHow" is concerned. I am fully aware of the costs of trade shows. Being in the financial service industry I have attended and participated in many.

My experience with the past dive shows ( I believe the last I attended was the Underwater Canada Oct/01?). It wasn't any mare enlightening than the Scuba Swap held in Etobicoke in April.

I am looking for a show where the new products and Ideas are shown, and displayed. Not a bunch of travel agencies flogging their trips. They are a necessity in the industry, but that and a couple of wetsuit, and camera companies were all that was there. And of course the dive shops flogging last years duds.

As a retail store owner I know one has to get rid of older stock and different lines that don't sell, but at a "show" I expect to see new and inovative products, and ideas......
 
The last few U/W Canada shows were pretty sad. There's no argument there.
If you know the history of the show and the story of it's decline you'll better understand why, but it won't make you feel any better.
UWC was a great idea in the beginning. It was an opportunity for the OUC to bring the best elements of the the sport together for a conference or symposium, if you like. U/W photographers and videographers would get a chance to show off, a variety of forums would educate and inform the diving community, the OUC would hold it's general annual meeting and so on. All the diving clubs would participate in a fun weekend of scuba oriented activities including the famous dinner and dance.
The idea of having gear manufactureres and retailers came later and that was over the objections of some organizers. Many felt that they were not a good component because (gasp) they made money! But the gear displays became in fact, the most popular part of the show.
It was made clear from the start that UWC was not to be a retail show. You could not purchase gear there. The stores would only promote their services and products and entice the divers to visit the store. That's the way it was for several years. About 12 - 15 years ago and over the loud objections of many people including retailers like myself, it was decided to allow selling and that continued for a few years until it became apparent the show was deteriorating into a flea market. The original intent (diver edification) was being lost in the noise of flogging cheap fins. Again the decision to stop selling was made but some retailers who had enjoyed the flurry of sales were able to sidestep the rules and divers still came to get cheap gear. The forums, symposiums and other activities were losing their share of the diver's interest. The show never fully recovered from the first fatal decision and slowly but steadily lost favor in the diving industry (retailers and manufacturers). Despite several changes in management and another attempt to allow 'limited' retail sales at the last moment, the show finally was no longer financially able to carry on.
Ironically, by not working with industry members who make money in scuba diving (those bas...ds), the show no longer made money and folded!
Let me make clear that there were other factors as well. Some poor decisions by management, the decline in 'shows' popularity generally, the increasing ability of divers to see everything that would be at the show at their well-run LDS, the steady decline in the dive club structure, etc also contributed to the loss. However, when major retailers withdrew their support, they caused a blow that would be fatal.
Let me give you just 3 examples of how that can happen - there are many other ways a retailer can influence the success of such a show.
First be aware that at the time sales were limited (approx. 1998?), I had 4 separate display booths at U/W Canada all promoting a different facet of my business - retail (without on-site sales), instructor training, diver education and my pet project, The History of Scuba which was a very popular display. When the retail sales understanding was broken the following year, I withdrew completely. Four displays (6 booths) gone from just one retailer. Others did the same. To cater to few vocal retailers, UWC gave up it's own income base.
Second, the manufacturers cater to the retailer which, while unsettling to some divers, is logical and good business. The retailers are their customers - not the divers. Therefore, when the major manufacturers asked the retailers where they would like promotional money spent, the answer was "not at U/W Canada". That's why in the last few years the big gear distributers were not there. When your biggest buyer tells you he will not be at UWC and he'd prefer that you not attend too, you listen.
Third, obviously the retailers who did not support the show did not promote the show. When divers called from around the province asking for information about the show, the information was not available or the diver was directed to some other source for his needs. Promotional material (flyers, passes, etc) that was mailed to the retailers was not used. We alone train 2000 divers annually and influence that number again. Multiply that by a dozen more retailers and you have many thousands of divers in the GTA who developed in scuba and never heard of the OUC or UW Canada. Generally NO scuba store owners outside the GTA ever promoted UW Canada. The reason for that follows.
In case you feel compelled to blame me, remember there were other factors AND the blame for creating the atmosphere that turned so many against the show falls in the lap of UWC management! I was one of the biggest supporters of the show until IT changed it's format.

It's too bad you didn't get to see the show in it's heyday. Certainly our booths showed nothing but the latest, newest products and promoted the most innovative courses and diving activities and all the big gear manufacturers were there too. In the last few years, the exhibitors were, as you say, the dregs of the industry.

The theory of a dive show for divers sounds good but there is a fatal flaw. It simply goes against the grain of good business practices. If your local LDS (now that's a BIG if!), has a modern and well-run diving business, you the diver can go there and get all the latest information on scuba diver education, scuba equipment, dive travel both local and exotic, advice and service for your gear, air fills, and solid, honest opinions and advice on any question you may have about scuba diving, then the need for a show disappears. Heck you can also buy anything your heart desires!
For that retailer to pick up his store and move it complete with staff, accommodation and other expenses to another location for just a few days in the hope of attracting some customers from outside his normal LDS area with cheap prices is simply not logical!! Those customers are NOT going to be an asset to his growing business. Not only will they not likely travel to visit him once they've returned home, they are only looking for the lowest prices - not overall support from a store for their scuba diving activities. The store will NOT recoup even his expenses for the show much less make a profit. You tell me why I would do something so cleary un-businesslike!

At first the diver appears to be the only winner because he saves some money. Even that's not true. Oh he might save a few bucks in purchases he makes at the show but it won't be much more of a saving than if he had established himself as a good customer at his LDS. Additionally, the loss of sales to his LDS may over time result in the closing of the LDS so his close and supportive source of scuba services is gone. Now the struggle to get scuba services will very soon eat up any savings he got from the singular purchase made at a dive show. Generally, you see, it's the larger GTA stores that are at any such show and the smaller, hard-working stores in outside communities lose sales that should be theirs. I'm not saying you should be paying more for gear just to help your LDS but I'm saying the apparent savings at a show are not as great as they appear and ultimately are no saving at all. New divers don't know what they ought to buy and usually buy what their 'buddy' has whether it's right or not. They soon end up selling it or trading it in at a loss for more appropriate gear. Even experienced divers often are sucked into buying what they think is right and then find that service and parts are unavailable locally (shipping to BC or California for warranty or repair soon eats up any savings) or that the item is not an exact fit and doesn't do what they'd hoped. The store from which they bought the item at the show is usually not interested in a trade or refund and the LDS has no reason to do so. One of the several reasons I still attend some shows is to establish our name as the 'solver' of such problems - and we get lots of them. In many, many cases the divers would have saved a lot of money and a whole lot of aggravation by working with his 'good' LDS.

The bottom line is that most such 'shows' benefit no one!
Now remember again that I'm assuming you have a good LDS and good doesn't mean the owner is a nice guy!
I'm painfully aware that is often not the case because of the many, many calls, emails and sales we handle each day from far-flung places in Ontario and beyond.

At least perhaps I've given you food for thought and some insight into the impact of the 'show' in the scuba industry.

I have good reasons to attend some shows and we'll see you at the Outdoor Adventure Show. We're not going there because it's a 'scuba show' this year. We've been there every year since it started. And I'm sure not going there to see if I can sell scuba gear for less than anyone else. Any idiot can do that!!
But, if you need anything related to your enjoyment of the sport of scuba whether it's something tangible (a weird item you saw on your trip to Australia) or simply advice or another opinion, we'll be there for you (and it won't cost you either!).
 
Thanks for your thorough reply and history on the show. It helps to get the lowdown.

The reason I go to trade shows etc is to see some if not all the product various companies have and to try to compare at least visually and physically the different pieces of gear I am interested in. eg BCs, your shop may carry 2-3 different companies and may infact only stock one or two types of the BC. If I am interested in back inflate style for example you may only have one or two on hand, and your competitors the same. If I can see "all" the different ones in one place the decision is easier. Than I would go back to my favorite LDS and see if they carry, or can carry the certain brand I like. If not then I can go down the road, or choose the product they carry.

That is the only reason that I enjoy the shows.

The extras like video shows etc, I also enjoy but as a secondary reason to attend.

I have no real interest in the "flea" market atmosphere. It lowers the IMHO the quality of the show.

Hopefully we will say hi at the show, if I don't run into you in your store at some time......
 
You are dead right!

The ability to easily compare the different makes, models and all the features of a wide variety of scuba items is the singular benefit of a show to the diver. That's exactly why DEMA is popular among the industry members.

Unfortunately that benefit is lost when the show for whatever reason is no good.

Most companies now have their products on the internet. I know it's not the same but it comes close. Many do not have catalogues any more. We are one of the few stores that will order an item for you to look and and try with no obligation to buy but that is rare.

You're right as well that no dive store has all brands. Generally they will carry what they have found to be the best in terms of the diver's needs and desires AND what those which give good service, warrantees, etc. Senior stores can choose the brands they want and can thus assure the divers that his purchase is secure. New stores do not have that privelege and will have to make do with the smaller non-name brands or the less desireable makes.

There are also some business reasons why a store carries certain brands but even those reasons ought to favor the diver. Certainly at our center, the divers needs are the major factor in any decision made.
 

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