Undercurrent Review of Coz!!

[DandyDon]

I don't think it's that far fetched to think that the guy who posted the complaint that ended up as an "example" also sent the same thing (word for word) to Undercurrent.

You're right there. Yet would DocV have access to such there?

 

[D_O_H]

You're right there. Yet would DocV have access to such there?

Isn't that what the whole second half of his article is about? Reports from their readers?

 

[H20Bubbles]

Isn't that what the whole second half of his article is about? Reports from their readers?

As was shown in the post here... I find it hard to believe the reader's story to be true and at a minimum grossly exagerated. Not only that, but he posted the thread and was then never heard from again (he has a whopping two posts here on SB). How credible do you really think this source to be?

As for Undercurrent and Doc's report.... While Undercurrent may be there to provide reports from their readers - it seems odd to me that Doc's story nearly exactly quotes the post made here on SB. Do you wonder whether he even talked with the person making the claims? Do you think he contacted the dive operator before writing the story?

Like it or not, Doc and Undercurrent have some responsibility for validating claimed reports from readers. Printing negative stories that can bring harm to an individual or their business that have no fact is not only irresponsible reporting and use of the media, but also could be considered libel.

Like I said, I think Doc represents the good and bad of the impacts of the hurricane on Cozumel and the diving. However, to write such blatant attacks on businesses without the supporting evidence or information is irresponsible.

 

[cdiver2]

As was shown in the post here... I find it hard to believe the reader's story to be true and at a minimum grossly exagerated. Not only that, but he posted the thread and was then never heard from again (he has a whopping two posts here on SB). How credible do you really think this source to be?

As for Undercurrent and Doc's report.... While Undercurrent may be there to provide reports from their readers - it seems odd to me that Doc's story nearly exactly quotes the post made here on SB. Do you wonder whether he even talked with the person making the claims? Do you think he contacted the dive operator before writing the story?

Like it or not, Doc and Undercurrent have some responsibility for validating claimed reports from readers. Printing negative stories that can bring harm to an individual or their business that have no fact is not only irresponsible reporting and use of the media, but also could be considered libel.

Like I said, I think Doc represents the good and bad of the impacts of the hurricane on Cozumel and the diving. However, to write such blatant attacks on businesses without the supporting evidence or information is irresponsible.

Just done the same thing? You have suggested that UC & Doc have printed something unsubstantiated and the original poster a liar, how do you know its not true?, if it is true are you now liable?

 

[Valwood1]

Just done the same thing? You have suggested that UC & Doc have printed something unsubstantiated and the original poster a liar, how do you know its not true?, if it is true are you now liable?

No. While it may be libelous to call someone a liar when he/she isn't, there's no liability absent "damages" to that person, and it would be impossible to prove such damages. And, Doc may well be a "public person", in which case he would have to prove that the libel was written with malice or with gross neglience. Besides, it's an accepted practice here for comments to be called into question in a -- shall we say -- firm and outspoken manner.

As an aside, I did think that we'd pretty well beat to death the tale of the 6 knot current and 1.5 mile swim, and wish that it had not been included in Doc's report; or if it was, inclusion of the Blue Bubbles response seems appropriate.

 

[cdiver2]

No. While it may be libelous to call someone a liar when he/she isn't, there's no liability absent "damages" to that person, and it would be impossible to prove such damages. And, Doc may well be a "public person", in which case he would have to prove that the libel was written with malice or with gross neglience. Besides, it's an accepted practice here for comments to be called into question in a -- shall we say -- firm and outspoken manner.

As an aside, I did think that we'd pretty well beat to death the tale of the 6 knot current and 1.5 mile swim, and wish that it had not been included in Doc's report; or if it was, inclusion of the Blue Bubbles response seems appropriate.

You can make public comments about UC a business and there is no damage. I don't know that much about DV but I do believe he has some income from the scuba related area

I don't think it matters what you or anyone on the board consider accepted practice. There is no difference between what is printed on this board and UC they are available for the general public to read. That is part of the reason why we have TOS, we don't want the board owner getting sued do we. . . no more SB

 

[Christi]

The report regarding "Lost at Sea" was actually posted as a reader report in UC, word for word as it was on this board.

For those interested in Roberta of Blue bubble's response to his claims, here it is...or you can read it here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=130715&page=8

Roberta's unedited reply to Ron & me ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... Roberta is replying to both RonFrank's note mentioned above and to my request for her permission to post her initial reply ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello there Ron -

Thank you very much for contacting me. A very good customer of mine has also E-mailed me with this information. So, I am including him on this response. Even though I already told Bade quickly the story yesterday, I think that I have formed a more "formal" reply. BUT, on the other hand, how to you respond to this without lowering yourself to the same level - he said/she said. Which Robert (my husband) and I are wondering if a response is even necessary. I will leave that for you to decide.

Scenario - 4 guys prepay for a private charter for diving while they are in Mexico. Their dive shop works with us and set up the diving. They had 3 days of a private boat chartered and decided that they wanted to go to Punta Sur. As you know, Punta Sur is an advanced dive and the divemaster/instructor and I talked long about allowing this group to go because 1 of the divers was more nervous than the rest. I told the DM that I had no problem telling the group that we did not think that the ENTIRE group was up to diving these advanced dives. But he had been diving with them and thought that the nervous diver would be able to do this with extra attention from the DM.

Dive Day - Boat departs and goes to Punta Sur. The currents were weird and the visibility was less than 40 feet. They decide to go to Maracaibo. A deeper reef. The dive briefing is given and it was decided that if any one of the divers was unable or taking too long to descend, that they would return to the boat and abort the dive. No second chances. This is standard operating procedure for either one of the advanced dive sites. Everyone goes in...... and the nervous diver has problems going down, (according to the instructor shaking because he was nervous). As per the dive briefing, the divemaster after a few minutes and the diver both signal to each other that the diver will go up. The diver returned to the boat and asked for more weight to try and go back down again. The captain should NOT have given it to him, but he did. And then the captain stayed with him while the diver attempted to descend again. After another couple of minutes, the diver decided to abort the dive, and return to the surface, where he got onto the boat again. As you know, the currents and winds can take the boat away from the group, so while the captain was care of this diver, he then lost the bubbles of the group. Once the diver who aborted was on the boat, the captain went back to look for the group. Underwater, the currents were moving much faster on he bottom than with the boat on the surface, so the boat ended up south of the group. In addition, on the safety stop, the current took the divemaster and all of the divers out over the blue water. So, when they surfaced, they were way away from the reef and of course, other dive boats. It took exactly 30 minutes for them to finally get a boat to see them and then come and get them. 35 minutes by the time that everyone was on the boat. Our dive boat was farther south still looking for the group. During the time on the surface, the divers began to get nervous. And the subject of the movie "Open Water" came up. The divers asked the DM if he had seen the movie and told them no. And the guys then explained about it and how they were getting very nervous. The DM then commented on how he had seen "Jaws" many years ago and that still did not make him nervous so as to not continue diving. I am not quite sure that the humor in the joke was appreciated. They began to ask if they were going to get lost, how many divers were lost a year, how many we lost a year, how many Cozumel lost a year............basically they started to panic. At this point in time, according to the divemaster, since the divers were so nervous, he decided that he would make them swim towards the shore. To help keep their minds off of the movie, etc. After about 30 minutes on the surface, floating along the coast line of the island, swimming towards the island, another boat spotted them and got them on board. This took 35 minutes in total This boat then called to our boat, using the standard call 06 channel. During all of this, the captain from our boat began to get nervous since the time for the dive had terminated and he was unable to find the group. He was radioing to our other boat that was also diving Maracaibo, and talking on another "talk" channel, not the call channel. As well as searching for the divers with the engines running. It took our captain about 10 minutes to finally get on the right channel at the right time to hear the boat that picked up the group.

Return - When the divers returned at the end of the dive trip (after they made their second dive), the group of divers came to me and told me that the captain lost them for 1 hour on the surface and that they were floating out to sea. I immediately went our captain and asked for his version, times, etc. As well as the divemaster. When I returned to talk with the divers, and requestioned them about the amount of time on the surface, it was then to 30 - 35 minutes. We also discussed the fact that neither the captain NOR the diver who returned to the surface followed the instructions of the dive briefing. And that was how the captain lost the group. Of course in all of this, I apologized but was not willing to put 100% of the blame on the captain. Yes, part of it was his fault.

Net result -
1 - yes the captain made an error trying to help the 1 diver who was unable to descend, came back to the surface and asked for more weights. At that point in time the captain should have told him NO and got him back on the boat, but he did not. So, when he attended to the diver until the point in time when the diver decided to abort his dive, the captain lost the bubbles. Both the diver and the captain disregarded what was specifically explained in the dive briefing.
2 - An additional dynamic to this situation is how peer pressure can coax people into diving at locations where they really do not feel comfortable.
3 - This is also an example of how damning the movie "Open Water" is to the dive industry.
4 - If this was truly that scary of a diving incident, why did the group come back and dive the next day with us. They did end up going to Punta Sur and all divers were able to make the dive.

And this is the whole truth and the facts. I have no idea when the fishing was added into the story. The vomiting because of a hangover is not true. This captain no longer drinks. Where the 1.5 miles comes into play, no one knows. I did not realize that there is 1.5 miles between Punta Sur and Maracaibo - and they picked up the divers outside of Punta Sur.

So, Bade, you know me very well, and I trust you to know what to include or not include. I don't really think that any of the content of this E-mail is any different than the one I E-mailed you yesterday. Just maybe a bit more thought out and more carefully worded. Any editing that you might think is necessary is fine by me. As well as for you Ron. I am not sure if a reply is necessary or what.... or if some of the things that I wrote are my own personal comments or opinions, then maybe you will need to eliminate that so that the bare facts remain.

Thanks so much for helping out. We really appreciate it.

Happy Diving 000~(-)
Roberta Cwiertnia PADI MSDT #36805

 

[Len]

Bra-vo !

I'll second that Bra-vo.

Cozumel has changed. It's not the same place it was last year, five years ago or ten years ago. That's a good thing for a few but not a good thing for many more. In the end it's all about $$$.

I think the last paragraph is key...and I quote...

"So pick the right dive operators, keep your expectations in line, and go have a dive and a cold cerveza. Cozumel is still a lot of fun. But don’t expect to find any bargains".

 

[domino22]

The report regarding "Lost at Sea" was actually posted as a reader report in UC, word for word as it was on this board.

For those interested in Roberta of Blue bubble's response to his claims, here it is...or you can read it here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=130715&page=8

Well we have been shooting arrows back and forth over the coz conditions, you have made a post that I agree with and was, well good! But we are not done yet talking about Coz. But great responce! domino22

 

[BadeInBulverde]

just to let her know that Undercurrent had published the tale ... I'm not sure she can do much more than assert as she did thru this board that there are definately two sides to that story ....

My wife and I dove a week in Cozumel the middle of this past March (with Roberta's shop... to refer to her 6 diver 26' boats as "cattle boats" just goes to further indicate the credability of the complaintant .. she only HAS 2 boats left of her previous 5 and both of them are 6 person twin outboard small/fast boats ... ah -- maybe he comes from somewhere with VERY SMALL CATTLE) and I agree with the other reports that there is damage and Coz is still one of the best dive locations on the planet ...

Bade