UTD vs GUE revisited

[WhiteSands]

At this point I really don't know enough to know what's good/not so good. I actually know next to zero besides what I've learned from the course. Have to just follow the agency's training recommendations. Is there a good resource that I can read up to educate myself or keep updated on the latest research that's accessible by a layman? I guess I'm kinda paranoid about the damage to the CNS after watching some lectures on youtube on DCS.

I do not think that you should be overly worried about ratio deco by itself causing DCS-- at least not at this stage as a recreational diver. Ratio deco is actually pretty conservative when applied to a recreational dive profile especially when compared to the standard 3-6m safety stop taught by many of the other agencies. Also, I only have second hand information, gleaned from "boat-talk" from another diver who completed both Essentials of Tech with UTD and GUE-F (Tech), but according to him they played around with DecoPlanner during Fundies and the ascent profiles it generated were pretty similar to what you would generate on the fly with ratio deco. They were diving at recreational depths within min deco, so I don't know if this similarity holds when applied to deeper or deco dives. Maybe one day I could play around with decoplanner myself and see if the similarity holds.

I agree with you that the UTD online classroom is pretty bad at times. The printed handbooks are actually pretty good, but the online slide presentation man... less than awesome. AG should book a studio, write down a lesson plan with what he wants to say, and redo the whole thing. LOL. Well, at least we have online material... a lot of other agencies don't have it at all.

I don't know if it is fair to make sweeping statements like UTD is better at X, GUE is better at Y. I think what you have to learn to safely dive in a cave for example is broadly the same.Sure, there are some small differences --how you are taught to route the light cord, whether your backup light can have rechargable batteries, etc.-- but in the end it boils down to the instructor... which instructor do you have access to? Which instructor is more experienced? Which instructor has a teaching style that is right for you?

A caveat to that though: I don't think GUE teaches sidemount, or CCR, so if that is what you want to do in the future then plan accordingly. If, at this stage, you know that you want to dive sidemount exclusively and never want to dive backmounted doubles, then I would suggest not going GUE route (at least beyond Recreational Fundies). Otherwise there is nothing (aside from cost) really stopping you from learning backmounted doubles first then sidemount/CCR later if you want. You could do GUE-F for the rec pass and make a more informed decision on whether to go for the tech pass and continue along GUE syllabus, or to stick with UTD, or a mix of both.

Wait a second: Essentials of Rec, gripes about the online classroom... do I know you? Say yes if you just got back from a Redang liveaboard after National Day. If so, what the hell, man. I thought we were supposed to go Cave 1 together? LOL.

Yes just came back from a LOB but not to Redang!

 

[bluemed]

Ratio deco is a big lesson in just that, how to prevent yourself from getting the bends.
It is not about coming up with perfect numbers, it is a decompression strategy or ascent strategy, depending on the conditions, personal preferences you can adjust your stops.
What you can do, is make a plan on V-planner and Deco planner and see for yourself, if you adjust the GF's a bit you will find a very similar results.
You gain so much insight....
regarding UTD and GUE
I am a GUE diver and now a UTD Instructor, both agencies have many things in common and both of them are great and deliver great divers and instructors.
UTD is very dynamic, yes maybe not always what people exactly want to see, but thats what I like...although you will not see me on a RB in the near future, I do like the idea of my fellow instructors looking at eCCR's as something that is there (for a reason) and is not going away, the same for sidemount..it is there and it is not going away because of an agency or people and I do like that a lot ! ;-)

 

[tracydr]

I have a couple of thoughts on the UTD/GUE question. First of all, is there any chance that GUE will ever embrace and start teaching side mount? I ask this because I believe it may be the only way that I will be able to dive with double tanks moving into my future. This could make a big difference,because if GUE has plans in the pipeline to add side mount, I would consider starting my training with Fundies,with the hopes that they are able to get further plans into place.
Second, what are the expansion plans for UTD? Currently, it seems like you almost have to travel to San Diego for any UTD training in the US, although I did notice a couple of new spots opened up recently. The fact that I'm moving soon may impact which agency I choose to go with.
I was looking at UTD's class offerings and a little confused as to which class would be similar to a Fundies level. Do you have to take one or more of the Rec level classes before starting into the Essentials of Tech?

 

[TSandM]

We have UTD instructors in Seattle, and I know of one in Detroit . . . I think there are a few more in the US, but the expansion of the agency has been much more rapid in Europe and Asia, I think.

Essentials of Rec is much like GUE Primer; Essentials of Tech is like a tech pass class of Fundies, I think.

I do not think GUE will move to incorporating sidemount for open water or for beginning cave classes. It's regarded as a tool, and one which is only necessary for fairly advanced cave diving and exploration. But I could be wrong. That's the sense I got, talking to JJ when he was here, and that's also the tenor of Fred Devos's article on sidemount in a recent issue of Quest.

I still don't think anyone could do wrong by taking Fundamentals, even if you do so in a single tank. I have a friend in Florida who was Full Cave from another agency, who recently took Fundies, and felt it was a very valuable class to have taken. The stress on pinpoint accuracy in buoyancy and trim, the coaching on diver positioning and communication, and the emphasis on teamwork are valuable for anybody, I think, whether you go on with GUE or not, and even if you change configurations.

 

[DevonDiver]

I've seen a few instructors qualify through UTD that I didn't rate at all, seemingly on a 'fast track'. That's a significant factor for me, as I've not yet met a GUE instructor who I'd consider a potential liability. The UTD z-manifold sidemount also diminishes credibility in my eyes. Just a personal opinion. In contrast, GUE have been slower in that evolution, but seem more concerned about 'doing it (sidemount) right', rather the rushing into it and/or using it as a vehicle for personal enrichment through product sales.

 

[bluemed]

I don't know who you are referring to, but I can assure you UTD IDC's are no walk through the park. Paper Crossovers as such, do not exsist, so fast track ? of course there are good, better instructors..but a liability ? a bit harsh not ? What is that you teach for...aahh..ok, just saw it.
Unfortunately, both agencies, GUE and UTD we are talking about have what I call to many "weekend" instructors , maybe you are referring to them?

 

[mathauck0814]

I don't know who you are referring to, but I can assure you UTD IDC's are no walk through the park. Paper Crossovers as such, do not exsist, so fast track ? of course there are good, better instructors..but a liability ? a bit harsh not ? What is that you teach for...aahh..ok, just saw it.
Unfortunately, both agencies, GUE and UTD we are talking about have what I call to many "weekend" instructors , maybe you are referring to them?

There is at least one UTD IDC candidate at their SD HQ with fewer than six months of very infrequent diving experience and few dives who is being trained to teach their open water programs since they lost their full time instructor at that level. This does not bode well.

 

[bluemed]

Who did they loose? and who is that?....anyways..but even if so..6 months of traing at HQ, looks like quality time to me...and if we want to start about these things with other agencies,..well better not ;-)

 

[rjack321]

I don't know much about this, looked it up and it seems this isn't such a good idea according to some? Can someone pls advice. I am very concerned about DCS and correct off gassing strategy is very important to me.

Two points...
1) Everyone actually doing decompression and cave diving disagrees about a mountain of different things, some small - some large. Get used to it, there is no universal "agreement" on anything. (for all practical purposes)
2) There is no "correct" off gassing strategy. There are profiles which seem to work most of the time. As in, you're not clinically bent. The exceptions to "working" are sometimes predictable in hindsight and sometimes they are just random. Almost everyone I know has done some profiles over and over again dozens of times with no issue and then one day on the same exact dive they feel like crap (sub clinically bent) or even worse they come out clinically bent.

The only way to absolutely ensure that you won't get DCS is to stay out of the water entirely.

---------- Post added October 10th, 2013 at 10:02 PM ----------

We diverge here.

A recreational diver making 25K a year (which is more than many shop monkeys actually make) just isn't going to be able to afford Fundies. Its priced out of their league. Unless you think they shouldn't eat, or pay their rent, to be able to afford GUE-F. Or maybe you propose they quit diving until they can save up for 3 years to take Fundies?

 

[Karl_H]

I've seen a few instructors qualify through UTD that I didn't rate at all, seemingly on a 'fast track'. That's a significant factor for me, as I've not yet met a GUE instructor who I'd consider a potential liability.

Sadly this statement is spot on, it was the biggest difference between UTD and GUE for me. Previously the UTD standard seemed much much higher, just look at the pass rate the UTD IDCs a few years back to now, that tells a story - everyone seems to pass these days? That said, we all know other agencies are much worse, infact 6 months of experience with UTD is probablly better than most CDs for some agencies.

However, if we are just comparing GUE and UTD I will say I've yet to see a bad looking GUE instructor in the water, whereas I've seem several UTD instructors I really wouldn't rate. There is a difference between teaching ability and diving ability though, some divers look incredible in the water but can't teach, and UTD do have some interesting ideas and new perspectives on how things are taught - I don't think you can really teach what you can't do yourself but I could be wrong.

Both GUE and UTD have some great instructors and on a whole are much better than your typical instructor from other agencies, however the difference is UTD also have a fair few bad instrcutors.