...walked in the snow uphill, both ways!

[Ladydiver]

OK folks,

First of all, let's not get into a uproar and just say everybody has a right to their opinion.

I agree that, especially when dealing with novice divers, it is the primary responsibility of the Instructor, assisted by their DiveMaster(s) to understand the limitations of each student.

It is also the responsibility of the individual to know their own limits.

The woman in question in :royal:'s story had already tried to complete the certification 3, count'em 3 times prior to this particular course. The instructor knew this was her fourth time attempting a certification and should have paid more attention to the needs of this particular diver, but this woman should have also been re-evaluating her suitability to the sport.

She openly told the class on the first night that her first 2 attempts took place in Micronesia where conditions were a little less difficult than here in San Diego. Her 3rd attempt was in the warm waters of the Caribbean. On all three of those attempts, she said she ran into situations similar to the one that occurred with my class. She also had trouble carting her gear from the car to the dive site and a multitude of other issues.

IMHO, this particular woman had no business trying to dive.

HOWEVER, I happen to know divers of all shapes, sizes and ages, of both genders, who are fabulous divers. Who are able to take care of their own gear, know when to say "Enough, this is just beyond my ability", and know how to be responsible for themselves and look out for their buddy.

I don't think it is fair to make generalizations about who should dive and who should not, it is really based on the individual. I also think each and every diver out there should be able to say, I just don't feel comfortable diving with you and not feel bad about it. Greg G didn't make a small generalization, he mentioned a seriously impaired individual. Your life is at stake here people. You have to look out for yourself first. It is a judgement call, but it is one that could mean the difference between life and death.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

 

[ages]

I agree completely with LadyDiver. First and foremost, it is the responsibility of each diver to know their own limits. Unfortunately, with newbies, they often don't know their limits because they haven't been knocked around yet. When we dive, any member can call the dive (at any time in or out of the water), without explanation or question. It certainly sounds like this woman needed more work (possibly pool time) before facing the open water. It also sounded like the instructor had the almighty dollar in mind and was willing to sacrifice his divemasters and anyone else, instead of telling her that she had certain issues she needed to conquor. He could have told her to start walking and/or swimming until she had the strength to accomplish certain tasks. Not being there, I can't judge what could have been done....but it does seem the instructor was (or still is) a lawsuit waiting to happen. If there is any question about certifying the questionable, we just had a case up here where a dive shop certified a woman who should not have been. She died at 100' in a remote cove. They jury found the dive shop negligent for certifying her, but also found her dive buddy negligent (it was her dive buddy sueing the dive shop).

I hope I didn't offend anyone (other than the obvious) with my frustration. I do take great offense at blanket statements regarding human differences and abilities to function well at this or any sport. One of the best dive buddies I know, has back problems. He is magnificant in the water....but has to have help getting his gear carried into the water (he dons his gear where he doesn't take the full weight on the damaged part of his back. We are all delighted to do this for him, because he is one person we all would trust with our lives. He has proven his worth over and over again.

Our strength is in our differences and our abilities to overcome that which is not perfect in ourselves.

ages

 

[Mick]

If you dont want to hear from a newbie then switch off now

To a newbie like me, this is very interesting to read all of the comments here. One of the reasons I am on this board and not on the Aussie version is simple, people here have decent and valid points and are not here just to stroke each others ego's. I have met my instructor to be, and I believe him to be an honest helpful person who will drop everything to answer a question or make me feel more comfortable, this is the reason I am going to him to do my course.
The problem I can see in King Neptune's story is that on that particular day they had a bad combination of dumb and dumber. It seems to me that the instructor maybe had the idea in his head that he could dive on that day so therefore his students wouldnt have a problem ?? and maybe his student had a very high opinion of her own capabilities ???

I made it very clear to my instructor when I told him that "Scuba diving might be fun, but it's not worth dying for" Basically I was telling him that I know nothing about Scuba but I am also not a moron, if I had doubts about anything then I would tell him in no uncertain terms and he had better have a damn good response for me !

If I for just one second think that my instructor is putting me in danger then I will walk out, I dont care about losing money, I DO care about being put in danger, I HATE pain. At the same time, if my instructor thinks for one second that I am not ready or confidant enough to proceed then I would not be offended in any way, in fact, I would respect him more for telling me. To me, it dont matter a bit which agency I am with or how big the diving company, the books teach all pretty much the same thing but unforunately you cannot teach common sense, the is no such book.


I could say more but I am starting to rant

Mick

 

[Military Diver]

*Checking Political Correctness at the door*


Ok, The way I read these last few post has me confused but I agree with Greg AND ages but I don't follow "ages" thinking...

1st of all, "If you are old and Obese and in poor shape and don't have all your limbs" then you when we say "Life Support Equipment" we do not mean a "Mares" Neck Brace, a "Liquid Fit" Body Cast, an OTS lung machine, and 1/2 a dozen or so "Scuba Pro" IV's pumping blood back into you.

If you're overly concerned about Political Correctness within Scuba Diving, by todays meaning, then at best you're just careless and unwise. If you aren't smart enough to say "Hmm, no arms, 1 leg, 300lbs overweight, hacking up a bloody lung, maybe I'm not qualified to buddy with them" then please, find another sport. I'm not so worried about you as I am them due to you giving them a false sense of security or the other lives you place in danger because you don't think it's your place to judge them.

Maybe I read it wrong but it looked like Greg G said that if you are ALL of those things then stay out of the water, how could anyone with any common sense disagree?? These are HUMAN lives at stake here.

Never did he say that if you are "older than most divers" or "fatter than most divers" or if you "have asthma" that you need to check yourself into the nearest "Intensive Care Unit" and watch diving on TV. Or if you have a back problem are you a worthless scum sucker! So lets stop and think about what is being said and "question" what we dont understand or agree with before he INSULT someone for their input.

He also didn't say anything about models or the size of anyones butt or that if you weren't Cindy Crawford or Arnold Schwarzenegger you shouldn't dive. HE DID say though, that he understands that "the blind, asthmatic, epileptic, para, tri, and quadriplegic are being taught to dive"... "but for some, it's Insanity" ... KEYWORDS: [red]BUT FOR SOME[/red] ...


What is offensive and enough to upset anyone, is to be called a bigot and full of hate and that they judge divers rights by their butt size all because someone didn't read a post closely. Come on people, we are all here to learn and share, not sling mud and insults at each other.


Looking back I think "ages" said it best by saying "it is the responsibility of each diver to know their own limits. Unfortunately, with newbies, they often don't know their limits". ... Which is why you must speak up ... Greg and anyone else has every right in the world to "Call a dive without question" and I think his examples are perfect examples of when it would be wise to question it.

What Greg described is NOT just "human differences and abilities to function well" at diving.

One more thing to point out, "Scuba Diving" is not just "Any ol Sport" ... Although fun and enjoyable, if you don't take it seriously you are gambling with your life, and worse yet, the lives of those around you!

 

[Greg G.]

Military Diver was fairly accurate in his analysis of my statements. That was because he took the time to read it and my real-life example. Yes, all of those put together would certainly preclude someone from diving, but also (in most situations) each one by itself, IMO. Some examples of buddys I have turned down:

An epileptic. Although he assured me he hadn't had a seizure in years, and never while diving, I wasn't going to take the chance. I have experienced co-workers have epileptic seizures at work, and believe me, it's scary enough above water, let alone while diving. I'm not trained for it even above water, and am not about to try to handle it underwater, the Rescue class doesn't cover epileptic seizures while diving. Yes, he was offended, but let him.

An "old" guy. He was maybe in his late 50s, early 60s, was very out of shape, hadn't dived in several months, was new to diving, smoked like a chimney and was not used to cold water diving. I did try to take him out on a relatively easy dive, but on the surface swim he got tired and was weazing. I ended up towing him back to shore. Subsequent requests from him to buddy up were turned down.

A "cripple": She had a shoulder injury that hadn't quite healed. She assured me she could dive, but she needed help loading/unloading her gear, getting it on/off, and getting in/out of the water. She got po'd when I told her I wouldn't dive with her until her injury healed.

Well, shut my mouth and call me a bigot, because if that's what I am by not wanting to dive with the above, I'm proud to be one! I stand by my earlier statements and fully reserve the right to associate/dive with whom ever I please.

No, ages, it did not go out 100 years ago, it's still around, it's called "liberty".

 

[King_Neptune]

It certainly sounds like this woman needed more work
(possibly pool time) before facing the open water.

NO! There is NO amount of work, in her condition and mind frame set, that would have helped. More Pool Time? You mean FOUR different classes, with FOUR different sets of Instructors and DM's doesn't tell you something? It at the least makes ya stop and think.

It also sounded like the instructor had the almighty dollar in mind and was willing to sacrifice his divemasters and anyone else, instead of telling her that she had certain issues she needed to conquor.

NOPE ... The Instructor was filling in for another Instructor that got hurt. No money was involved. This is truely a case where this person had no respect for the sport, or themself, and worst of all, for others and their safety. The Instructor knew all of this and felt that it was a case of having bad teaching, but as we all learned this is a person that has NO business diving!

Diving is not for everyone and this is one of those cases.

=-)

 

[GetWet]

King,

That was quite a story. I didn't know whether to laugh (but I did) or cry for you. Anyway, if I'm ever in trouble I hope you're around to help.

P.S. I'm not too heavy!

---------------
GetWet (whenever you can)

 

[ages]

King Neptune - you are right...diving is not for everybody. I guess we are pretty lucky up here....just the conditions seems to keep all but the hardy away from the sport. Not many people are willing to fling themselves into 35 to 40 degree water, or schlepp 100 pounds of gear up and down the hills here just to get to the water!! Most folks don't even try up here....they probably go down to the warmer waters for their lessons!!

Greg G. Your latest explanations made what you were saying perfectly clear. I wish those explanations had been in your first post. I do agree with you in those specific situations. I have to tell you before I responded to your first post, I had several folks look at it and tell me what they thought you were saying. To the person, each one thought you were making "global" statements regarding all individuals.

ages

 

[Greg G.]

I'm not in the least bit gun-shy about locking horns with "pc" types, but I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat, "rec.scuba style" flame war on this board, or try to further explain my original post. I still stand by it, and make no apologies for it. Your friends can infer what they like. Let's just agree to disagree agreeably.

Greg G.

P.S. You sound like you're from the NW, (my home waters), if you know where the Edmonds Underwater Park is.

Originally posted by ages

Greg G. Your latest explanations made what you were saying perfectly clear. I wish those explanations had been in your first post. I do agree with you in those specific situations. I have to tell you before I responded to your first post, I had several folks look at it and tell me what they thought you were saying. To the person, each one thought you were making "global" statements regarding all individuals.

ages

 

[King_Neptune]

but I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat, "rec.scuba style" flame war on this board

Ah, the refreshing signs of intelligent life ...

hehe, The important thing here, is that we are all here with a common goal and objective. It's ok to agree, and it's ok to agree to disagree...

=-)