why helium?

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....the concept that 100ft is too deep for air and that an END of 60ft should be desired... .....
I guess if one (or many) position this to be true, the next step is to fill the newly created 'need' for additional training with a set of new courses...... Everyone wins. The agencies sell more courses, the equipment manufacturers sell more equipment and the divers get to dive technical and have bragging rights. I guess this is why I see more and more 'mix divers' at 30m (max with an average of 22m) sites.
 
I will not debate the merits of deep air because I think diving to depths beyond recreational limits on air is not smart. I also don't feel that there is a great tolerance to be aquired other than being better able to deal with intoxication which is no smarter than learning to drive a car after a 6-pack.

Pretty safe to say we are definitely on the same page here. My understanding is that the decision to make 130' the "recreational limit" was a rather arbitrary decision and had nothing to do with narcosis. Moreover, one could make the same argument that choosing 100' as a max END is also an arbitrary decision. Is .08 or .06 blood alcohol content the limit beyond which we can operate safely? The current science pretty clearly shows that narcosis starts as soon as you enter the water and then it becomes a matter of how "much" narcosis we should tolerate. Personally, I have a zero tolerance for drinking and driving and apply the same conservative standard to my diving. Further, I think we could agree that 130' in our neck of the woods is sure not the same thing as 130' in say, anywhere in the caribbean. However the fact remains that physics is physics and the gas laws are what they are, regardless of whether we are in the Caribbean or the PNW. The only real difference becomes one of perception and this has nothing to do with the actual physics of the situation.

Again it all comes down to a personal risk analysis. My personal decision is not to push my END deeper than 100' and I chose to take the additional training necessary to develop the skills necessary to dive with trimix. I also chose to make the commitment to a regular training and fitness schedule to keep those perishable skills current. What other people do is absolutely up to them, but my choices were what they were. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and 100' makes a nice round figure to calculate gas consumption based on ATA's, as well as simple gas strategies using nitrox on depths less than 4 ata's. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't intend to try and convert anyone who choses to disagree with me. I have been on dives where the C02 build up became problematic as a result of fatigue, coupled with poor viz and current. This made for some uncomfortable diving in warm and sunny climates and at very close to 100'. Again, I will base my decisions on the latest science coupled with personal experience and I don't let economics play any part in those decisions. If I can't afford to dive mix for the dive I want to do, I won't do the dive. Pretty simple and not unlike my decision not to drive or get in the car with someone who has been drinking at all. Just a fairly conservative approach. If I can't afford the taxi home from the bar, I would walk or call someone, but just because I didn't have the cash for the taxi I still wouldn't drive. I just chose not to put myself in a situation where my only options are all poor decisions. Dave, like you, I have a military background and one which developed a very strong proclivity to details where if we screwed up, someone's faimily was getting a letter from the CO. I don't ever want my loved ones to get one of those letters.

As to your direct question as to whether I consider dives deeper than 130' to be deep air dives, for the reasons mentioned above, I am not familiar with a standard definition of "deep air" that everyone agrees on. However, more to the point, I do consider an END of 130' to be deeper than I or anyone else should use. Again, just my opinion and I chose 100' for my max END for the reasons above and not just because any particular agency pulled it out of the hat.
 
I guess if one (or many) position this to be true, the next step is to fill the newly created 'need' for additional training with a set of new courses...... Everyone wins. The agencies sell more courses, the equipment manufacturers sell more equipment and the divers get to dive technical and have bragging rights. I guess this is why I see more and more 'mix divers' at 30m (max with an average of 22m) sites.

if all the mix divers who are diving to 30m are doing it for the bragging rights, how do you explain divers on mix at 30m who have done 100m dives?
 
if all the mix divers who are diving to 30m are doing it for the bragging rights, how do you explain divers on mix at 30m who have done 100m dives?

I dunno, they are setting 'an example'? :D
 
Sorry if this was already covered in the last half of the thread which I didn't bother to read...

Helium provides three benefits:

1. Offset Narcotic Gases such as N2 and O2. The most obvious and already covered.

2. Reduce gas density and work of breathing at depth which leads to overexertion and CO2 buildup. Not so obvious and probably more useful then number 1 as CO2 is much more narcotic then N2 and O2.

3. Better decompression characteristics.

a. Offset Nitrogen.

b. Yes it goes in and out faster but it is also less soluble. Imagine a glass of warm water. Dump sugar into it and the sugar dissolves. Dump sand into it and the sand doesn't dissolve. N2 = sugar. He = sand.

It has one huge downside. Cost.

Jonathan
 
b. Yes it goes in and out faster but it is also less soluble. Imagine a glass of warm water. Dump sugar into it and the sugar dissolves. Dump sand into it and the sand doesn't dissolve. N2 = sugar. He = sand.

It has one huge downside. Cost.

Jonathan
If it's less soluable what does it go in and out of?
 
If it's less soluable what does it go in and out of?

I guess it's human nature for a proponent of anything to take it one step too far.:D
 
If it's less soluable what does it go in and out of?

Ah, mr contrary speaks :)

In theory it's less soluble in "you" (bones, fat, muscle, blood, tissue, brains)
so less will "dissolve" in the body -- where does it go ? I dunno, maybe it's a stretch but I'd say perhaps it gets exhaled ?

Less gas in the body in theory (all theory :) means less decompression. Faster to exit means (in theory) a faster ascent "could" have a greater chance of DCS, but smaller molecules "could" mean that any effects are less than good ol air.

I surely hope summer comes to Canada soon ....
 
Ah, mr contrary speaks :)

In theory it's less soluble in "you" (bones, fat, muscle, blood, tissue, brains)
so less will "dissolve" in the body -- where does it go ? I dunno, maybe it's a stretch but I'd say perhaps it gets exhaled ?

Less gas in the body in theory (all theory :) means less decompression. Faster to exit means (in theory) a faster ascent "could" have a greater chance of DCS, but smaller molecules "could" mean that any effects are less than good ol air.

I surely hope summer comes to Canada soon ....
Nick, read these excerpts from Bruce Wienke:
. . .The size of bubbles formed with various inert gases depends upon the amount of gas dissolved, and hence the solubilities. Higher gas solubilities promote bigger bubbles. . .

. . .Another positive penny about helium diving scores the minimum-bends depth (MBD), that is, the saturation depth on a mix from which immediate ascension to the surface precipitates decompression sickness (DCS). For helium mixes, the MBD is always greater than that for proportionate nitrogen mix. For instance, the MBD for air (80/20 nitrox) is 33fsw, while the MBD for 80/20 heliox is 38 fsw. This results from helium’s lesser solubility compared to nitrogen as it impacts deeper and longer diving. . .

. . .For short exposures (bounce and shallow), the faster diffusion rate of helium is more important in gas buildup than solubility, and shorter NDLs than nitrogen result. For long bottom times (deco and extended range), the lesser solubility of helium is a dominant factor in gas buildup, and helium outperforms nitrogen for staging. Thus, deep implies helium bottom and stage gas. Said another way, transient diving favors nitrogen while steady state diving favors helium as a breathing gas. . .

. . .On most counts, helium appears superior to nitrogen as a diving gas. Helium bubbles are smaller, helium diffuses in and out of tissue and blood faster, helium is less narcotic, divers feel better when they leave the water after diving on helium, and helium MBDs are greater than nitrogen MBDs. . .
From Bruce Wienke, Deep Stops and Deep Helium

See also Bruce Wienke (BRW) in SB:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/379457-post6.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/427265-post4.html (Helium Wins On All Accounts)

Nick, the article above may help you understand where the NAUI Tech divers are coming from (especially in that current TDS thread:11:). . .
 
Nick, read these excerpts from Bruce Wienke:

From Bruce Wienke, Deep Stops and Deep Helium

See also Bruce Wienke (BRW) in SB:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/379457-post6.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/427265-post4.html (Helium Wins On All Accounts)

Nick, the article above may help you understand where the NAUI Tech divers are coming from (especially in that current TDS thread:11:). . .

I just read those posts. Can someone explain the difference to me between ongassing and solubility? I thought ongassing involved diffussion/solubility of the biomass. Just trying to learn something here!
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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