Will Shops & Instructors like this, or hate this?

[Peter Guy]

Dan, I like the concept but I'm afraid Bob is right that there will be significant resistance.

My experience with my little LDS -- not only No, but Hell No! We (the instructors) had a meeting last summer after the "Neutral Buoyancy" article came out -- the one of the three most senior instructors said he'd been trying this after team teaching with me AND IT WORKED. He explained he won't teach any other way. The most senior instructor said he read the article and thought it was BS -- but then read it again and realized he was wrong and that it made absolute sense and that everyone should do it. The third most senior instructor agreed with the other two and that he was already doing a modification of the system.

BUT, of the other three instructos, one older and two brand new, their take was "Why change?" The older instructor even went so far as to say that only if PADI specifically approved of the techniques would he even consider using them (this was, of course, an article published in the official PADI Instructor's magazine!).

It is "that type" of instructor who needs to see what can be done BUT it is also "that type" of instructor who will refuse to acknowledge there is any need to see it.

I wish you well and if you find a way to market it, please let me know!

 

[grantwiscour]

I like your idea danvolker. It sounds like a adjusting the approach might be beneficial for success. gsk3 may have it right when suggesting that you market directly to the divers.

In a recent conversation with some other divers I was pointing out that I don't see the LDSs selling/marketing to a diver on improving their buoyancy and trim and/or general dive skills. There are always the range of specialty classes, including PPB available. Some time with a trainer getting weighted and trimmed out in your various gear is a valuable step/tool to a new diver. A similar operation as an hour with a golf course pro or surf coach, etc. It seems like a strong revenue stream to an LDS. IMHO it would seem that the divers that utilize a "dive pro" to improve skills would likely be more frequent divers and consumers of dive gear than the vacation diver.

My wife and I are rec divers but I know enough to see benefits to our diving in tech, GUE, DIR, etc. Most of this starts with trim/buoyancy. Last week I bought some 1# weights for us to work on trim on our next outing. I'd probably give $50 for an hours worth of experienced instruction if it was available/offered.

With all the local and travelling divers in SE FL I think you have a good idea that benefits divers, the dive sites and overall the dive community. I am interested in seeing how it develops.

 

[Kingpatzer]

The issue of how much one of your instructors could learn, is potentially less important than the value to your shop of the NEW benefit that this new approach can offer your students. And it would be for you to offer. The idea is that this could create dozens or even hundreds of specialty students for a big dive shop....for GUE the DEMO might end up generating a very small number of students in the next 3 to 6 months, but only AFTER your people went through all the training you had for them.

I'm still not getting it. If I'm a PADI, TDI or other agency with any sort of tech focus, I've already got programs in place to teach the skills necessary to do this stuff well. If I've got no tech focus that means I'm not selling the gear in my store that people would need.

So I'm still not seeing the upside.

Why do we ask our students to go to florida instead of driving an hour to the nearest quarry or head up to the harbor to get out on Superior? I'm going to give them a more expensive option for what? So they can get an introduction to an agency's curriculum that we don't offer?

And maybe I just happen to work and dive with people who are miraculous, but we all somehow know how to hover and control our body movements underwater without having taken a GUE course

Now, I would see, and even support, an interagency seminar to give instructors from all agencies tools for their toolbox. But starting out with the idea that "we have skills you don't" right out of the box basically nixes it for me -- because honestly, you don't.

 

[Superlyte27]

You sound awfully BITTER .

I think you guys took me too seriously, even though I clearly said I was kidding.
So let me clarify for you goobers with no sense of humor....
I like that you guys are trying to get higher education in diving out there. Believe me when I say I'm all about positive change that makes for better divers. And I'm not too pig headed to say that my particular way of doing things can't be improved upon, and I'm always excited to learn things that will make my students better. I'd have no problem coming and sitting and learning. We all have room to learn.

But, with that said... the old school thought from some long time instructors and even new instructors still believe that the system isn't broken, and "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Sadly, I believe the system is broken or at least in need of some repair.

I commend you on trying to make repairs, but I think it's an uphill battle, especially when non-gue shops are going to see this as competition or at the very least, fixing a problem they can't admit is broken.

Again, I think you took my entire post as a jab, but I was sincere when I said "it sounds like a good idea". I am all for making better divers, and I applaud you for putting forth the ideas and efforts to make that happen. I hope you get less resistance than I anticipate.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I like the concept but I'm afraid Bob is right that there will be significant resistance.

My experience with my little LDS -- not only No, but Hell No! We (the instructors) had a meeting last summer after the "Neutral Buoyancy" article came out -- the one of the three most senior instructors said he'd been trying this after team teaching with me AND IT WORKED. He explained he won't teach any other way. The most senior instructor said he read the article and thought it was BS -- but then read it again and realized he was wrong and that it made absolute sense and that everyone should do it. The third most senior instructor agreed with the other two and that he was already doing a modification of the system.

BUT, of the other three instructos, one older and two brand new, their take was "Why change?" The older instructor even went so far as to say that only if PADI specifically approved of the techniques would he even consider using them (this was, of course, an article published in the official PADI Instructor's magazine!).

It is "that type" of instructor who needs to see what can be done BUT it is also "that type" of instructor who will refuse to acknowledge there is any need to see it.

I wish you well and if you find a way to market it, please let me know!

Peter,
I see your point. I still see a real need for something to highlight the skills most divers DO NOT have, and to show them where these skills could come in to play, and how much they would appreciate these skills once they had them. Which is why I would do an article on this....

Maybe the way around the inter-agency competition, would be using a REAL competition for the demo, and then showing some solutiuons for better performance--by a multi-agency instructor group at the BHB....

What comes to mind is borrowing an "Event" from the ULTIMATE DIVE CHALLENGE TV Show..... We could probably get the Show, to loan us or even make up a structure for us, one of their swim through tunnel structures with twists and turns, something that can simulate a serious shipwreck penetration, or cave penetration...but without the real danger, and with support divers at the ready.....These structures allow a spectator base to see the whole penetration from the outside, as well lending themselves to good video.

I would like one that has about 2 feet max above and below the diver......and is over silt, so actually hitting bottom or finning into bottom is an obvious no no....it could be about 25 feet long, and should have some right angle turns into new entrance structures that require helicopter turns, and potentially even reverse kicks to make the new entrance. There could even be a 5 foot horizontal ascent with 180 degree turn, a chimney to move up, with a new outlet for the final exit.

This could be a challenge event at the BHB, one that could have prizes by some diveshops and some mfgs, and some free dives from boats.
Some of the instructors could run the course, and show how easy it could be, then let the "public" try it. !

Then there could be a workshop on the skills needed, with 6 or 7 agencies represented in the instructor pool.

Since I happen to know that the Ultimate Dive Challenge TV show is coming to Palm beach in late July, I am pretty sure I could hit thyem up for some help running some weekend challenges like this, since it would be good publicity for them if they were to do this.
If you guys don't like this angle, then I would say I am out of ideas on how to stimulate more advanced training.

 

[g1138]

Recently I've been GUE and DIR inspired, the only thing I don't follow in their approach is deco planning and equipment. Simply because I'm a recreational diver, and I like my gear custom to my convenience. I see no need to go into that yet.

If you can create a GUE demo class that takes more emphasis on the diving skills and team work and leaves out their other fundamentals, then I think that would be a good start.
You have to be careful though. Is the point to promote safe diving or to promote GUE? The latter would probably get a lot of flak.

It would be good to break the perception that DIR is all about the perfect universal equipment set up. Have a GUE diver perform their skills in a traditional stock BC. Perhaps even go with a recreational hose set up. This of course doesn't shine light on GUE but rather just emphasizes efficient and environmentally sound diving, inspired and using GUE techniques.

Honestly if you're going to optimize recreational gear w/o going into the Bp/W you're going to be taking out lots of those gadgets and trinkets that the LDS sells such as octo holders retractors etc etc. The LDS makes a lot of money on those things, I think. They're going to be angry when you tell divers that the best octo holder is a 45 cents piece of bungee.

But if you can focus on setting divers to improve their trim, buoyancy, and basic skills then there's a start at least.
Give your audience two examples in your demo:
- full GUE
- GUE inspired
and try to focus on sound diving principles and team work. Then I think you may have something.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Peter,
I see your point. I still see a real need for something to highlight the skills most divers DO NOT have, and to show them where these skills could come in to play, and how much they would appreciate these skills once they had them. Which is why I would do an article on this....

Maybe the way around the inter-agency competition, would be using a REAL competition for the demo, and then showing some solutiuons for better performance--by a multi-agency instructor group at the BHB....

What comes to mind is borrowing an "Event" from the ULTIMATE DIVE CHALLENGE TV Show..... We could probably get the Show, to loan us or even make up a structure for us, one of their swim through tunnel structures with twists and turns, something that can simulate a serious shipwreck penetration, or cave penetration...but without the real danger, and with support divers at the ready.....These structures allow a spectator base to see the whole penetration from the outside, as well lending themselves to good video.

I would like one that has about 2 feet max above and below the diver......and is over silt, so actually hitting bottom or finning into bottom is an obvious no no....it could be about 25 feet long, and should have some right angle turns into new entrance structures that require helicopter turns, and potentially even reverse kicks to make the new entrance. There could even be a 5 foot horizontal ascent with 180 degree turn, a chimney to move up, with a new outlet for the final exit.

This could be a challenge event at the BHB, one that could have prizes by some diveshops and some mfgs, and some free dives from boats.
Some of the instructors could run the course, and show how easy it could be, then let the "public" try it. !

Then there could be a workshop on the skills needed, with 6 or 7 agencies represented in the instructor pool.

Since I happen to know that the Ultimate Dive Challenge TV show is coming to Palm beach in late July, I am pretty sure I could hit thyem up for some help running some weekend challenges like this, since it would be good publicity for them if they were to do this.
If you guys don't like this angle, then I would say I am out of ideas on how to stimulate more advanced training.

Call it a performance diving workshop ... no mention of agencies whatsoever.

Identify what skills you plan to focus on ... clearly identify those skills ... advertise them in a series of "How would you like to be able to" type questions.

Create a syllabus that defines what you plan to do and how you plan to do it.

Invite local area instructors to participate.

Nothing invites participation like a sense of ownership. If shops see a way to benefit their business, they'll jump on it. If they see it as something that either won't benefit them, or will compete with them, they'll resist it.

Perception is everything ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I'm still not getting it. If I'm a PADI, TDI or other agency with any sort of tech focus, I've already got programs in place to teach the skills necessary to do this stuff well. If I've got no tech focus that means I'm not selling the gear in my store that people would need.

At the level I am discussing, your people would not need tech gear. They would just need a balanced system, which I am certain you would be able to sell them.

So I'm still not seeing the upside.

Why do we ask our students to go to florida instead of driving an hour to the nearest quarry or head up to the harbor to get out on Superior? I'm going to give them a more expensive option for what?

Thanks, this one is easy !! You "bring them" to Palm Beach, for Dive Travel. You get to operate as a travel agency, and as a dive shop. We even have a shop that will allow an out of state dive shop here with a group, to make commisions on any equipment that has to be purchased during the Palm Beach trip, due to breakage, sudden desire for upgrade, whatever--you would like the percentage. Moreover, the diving in Palm Beach is spectacular, much more exciting than the local quarry, particularly after one of your people is burned out on diving the quarry. Divers do like seeing huge fish, corals, massive ledges and wild shipwrecks....Palm Beach has this, and it is yours to bring to your divers....see [video=youtube_share;ZTdpxYSiv5M]http://youtu.be/ZTdpxYSiv5M?hd=1[/video]

So they can get an introduction to an agency's curriculum that we don't offer?

My idea is for this to be an impetus for YOU to be able to offer a class that deals exactly with these issues....this is about getting your divers to desire the advanced training that before they did not care about....sometimes divers need to be shown what they are missing....

And we would do this as a fun competition for the recreational divers, and multi-agency workshop for afterwards.

 

[TSandM]

In my experience, people don't react well when they feel threatened, and marketing a skills upgrade class to students of shops coming into the BHB is, in a way, implying that their own instructors aren't giving them what they could get. Further, as Peter says, from our home shop, we have learned that anything that smacks of "tech *&%$" can get immediately rejected, no matter what the value of it is.

But I think you might be able to market an intensive skills workshop for INSTRUCTORS, if you did it without mention of GUE, and if your demonstration subject was geared up in traditional single tank gear. Then you could simply show a level of buoyancy control and lack of site disturbance that folks might find intriguing -- having the subject back kick in front of students might prick up some ears, too.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You could market it for instructors ... or for divers. But promoting it in a way that shows instructors how they could manage it and make money on it would be the best approach.

This wouldn't have to be too different than what I'm doing right now with my skills workshops ... just perhaps a bit more formalized.

What I've discovered is that there IS a market out there for a week-end long workshop that focuses exclusively on improving diving skills ... during the past few months that's about all I've been teaching, and I don't even advertise. Imagine what a shop could do if they did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)