Liveaboards vs day trip boats safety differences

[rjack321]

As a diver, you have the opportunity to review the safety features and safety philosophy of the liveaboard you are thinking of using. Much of the information is available online, if it is not, that may raise a red flag. If you have questions, you can contact the operator. A prompt response would be expected, if not, perhaps another red flag. You're not going to get a SOLAS certified vessel short of the Nautilus Explorer. Once on board, you can make sure of the safety features and make sure you try out the emergency exits.

Really? And exactly how are you supposed to figure out if there's a SOLAS (or really any at all) grade fire suppression system in the engine room? Or if there's 13x in the compressor and when the gas was last tested? if a stability test of the hull was ever conducted and was the hot tub on the top deck added later? or if the night watch actually stays awake?

There is no way for any of this stuff to be verified online. Plus, after flying to the Red Sea, the Philippines, even LAX, or wherever with a return ticket 8 days from now what's a consumer going to do? walk off the dubious boat and stay in a hotel (which also may not have working smoke alarms or suitable emergency exits)

 

[scubadada]

Really? And exactly how are you supposed to figure out if there's a SOLAS (or really any at all) grade fire suppression system in the engine room? Or if there's 13x in the compressor and when the gas was last tested? if a stability test of the hull was ever conducted and was the hot tub on the top deck added later? or if the night watch actually stays awake?

There is no way for any of this stuff to be verified online. Plus, after flying to the Red Sea, the Philippines, even LAX, or wherever with a return ticket 8 days from now what's a consumer going to do? walk off the dubious boat and stay in a hotel (which also may not have working smoke alarms or suitable emergency exits)

You're not saying that you do no research and reserve your liveaboard blindly?

Not perfect, but there are things you can do ahead of time. There is safety information available online, especially more recently. Many operators know that this has become a more important topic. It is easy to communicate with a potential operator to ask questions or request clarification. You can search reviews, here on SB, or on Undercurrent. On either, you can send private messages to the authors to ask additional questions.

Importantly, you can make sure that you discuss safety in your liveaboard reviews, so that others can benefit from what you have learned.

 

[rjack321]

You're not saying that you do no research and reserve your liveaboard blindly?

Not perfect, but there are things you can do ahead of time. There is safety information available online, especially more recently. Many operators know that this has become a more important topic. It is easy to communicate with a potential operator to ask questions or request clarification. You can search reviews, here on SB, or on Undercurrent. On either, you can send private messages to the authors to ask additional questions.

Importantly, you can make sure that you discuss safety in your liveaboard reviews, so that others can benefit from what you have learned.

Yes I'm sure many liveaboards are advertising all their safety features now. And none of those marketing statements are really worth anything without a reliable 3rd party verifying them. Even the Conception was USCG certified afterall - divers had no way of knowing it was to a 30 year old standard and the crew didn't even follow that.

 

[boulderjohn]

Really? And exactly how are you supposed to figure out if there's a SOLAS (or really any at all) grade fire suppression system in the engine room? Or if there's 13x in the compressor and when the gas was last tested? if a stability test of the hull was ever conducted and was the hot tub on the top deck added later? or if the night watch actually stays awake?

Not perfect, but there are things you can do ahead of time.

The problem is that probably 99% of divers would have no idea what things to look for ahead of time. How many people do you think would know enough to ask about the items rjack321 mentioned? I sure didn't, and I think I know more than a lot of divers.

 

[cerich]

The problem is that probably 99% of divers would have no idea what things to look for ahead of time. How many people do you think would know enough to ask about the items rjack321 mentioned? I sure didn't, and I think I know more than a lot of divers.

why John, can't they just take a boat diving specialty and be completely informed on what to ask and look for? I mean, isn't the dive industry responsible making that available?

Oh, darn, i am an instructor for with the biggest agency and I checked the standards and... nope.

Oh well, if someone is in a fire on a live aboard, they can remind themselves that they are dying for the good of the industry so we can run boats cheap, sell cards and gear.

 

[Pressurehead]

How were they to know that the 2nd exit was bogus

I suspect you guys have something like this "Certificate of Survey" in the US.
Done by a 'Accredited marine surveyor' that would know a 2nd exit was not there.
Other parts of the world, who knows.
Having had vessels go through survey here.
It is a long and hard process, nothing is missed, little things you never thought of can cost you a lot of money and time.
I have a few I could quote, but I won't bore you.
I will not write the lot, I will cut and paste from a site:Find an accredited marine surveyor

a	Initial survey—plan approval
b	Initial survey—stability approval
c	Initial survey—load line—assignment
d	Initial survey—electrical—extra low voltage
e	Initial survey—electrical—low voltage
f	Initial survey—electrical—high voltage
g	Initial survey—construction or alteration—hull, deck and superstructure
h	Initial survey—construction or alteration—machinery
i	Initial survey—construction or alteration—load line conditions and markings
j	Initial survey—construction or alteration—equipment
k	Initial survey—construction or alteration—commissioning
l	Periodic survey
m	Periodic survey—electrical
n	Periodic survey—load line
o	Survey of safety equipment
p	Survey of communications equipment
*	Where marked with asterisks, limitations may apply

​

 

[scubadada]

If you look at the thesis @cerich posted, there are a number of simple safety features most anyone could ask about, check on, report in a review:

Nonetheless, there are some indicators for potential safety issues, which non-experts can detect. Such examples are:

• No safety briefing
• No abandon ship drill
• Expired or missing fire extinguishers
• Missing or inoperable smoke detectors
• Liferafts that are inappropriately mounted and not regularly maintained; no hydrostatic releases
• Liferings that are inappropriately stored, no attached light, no attached sea anchor, no attached smoke or smoke and light signal
• Inappropriate life vests
• Blocked emergency exits
• Emergency exits in unsuitable positions
• Missing handrails
• Missing safety-related radio equipment such as EPIRB (emergency satellite beacon), DSC marine radio, satellite phone, and AIS transponder
• Missing or improper anchors – essential safety equipment

Valuable information has been given on Undercurrent, previously cited by @John Bantin

A Template for Liveaboard Safety Precautions: Undercurrent 02/2020

https://www.undercurrent.org/members/UCnow/dive_magazine/2023/LiveaboardSafety202305.html

If you are an active diver anticipating a liveaboard trip, it's difficult to imagine you would not be sensitized to look at safety considerations.

 

[MB NZ]

How could they know the crew was flat out lying about it?

Egyptians working in the tourist industry and money is involved.

 

[Wookie]

I can't believe you are asking this question.

1. It was located as a hatch in the ceiling a couple feet above the top bunk in a 3-bunk area. It would take a borderline gymnastic maneuver to get through it. One corpulent passenger trying to get through it would be the cork in the bottle keeping anyone else from getting out. There is no way a large group of passengers could exit from it in a timely manner.
2. It exited into the same room as the main exit, and that room was fully engulfed in flames.

Yes, it did indeed meet "all requirements in place at both construction and for every annual inspection following." That's the problem. It was still worthless. It tells us that we as potential passengers cannot rely on Coast Guard requirements and inspections as a guide for our safety.

Worthless and bogus are different IMO. Yes, the exit was worthless, and dangerous. But it exactly met the coast guard requirements, so it wasn’t bogus.

 

[dmaziuk]

2.) Cost-Benefit Analysis. Let's look at some possible interventions from an earlier post:

Particularly given that a number of staff likely have 1st aid training, would I be willing to pay, oh, say, another $200 for an otherwise identical trip just to have a ship environment-focused EMT (or similar) onboard? What if a 3rd option cost $500 more but you get a family physician onboard?

What sort of medical emergency are you expecting to have, where an EMT can make an appreciable difference? Getting hit in the head by the ladder? A shark bite maybe, if you make it out of the water still alive?

Ditto for family doctor?