Liveaboards vs day trip boats safety differences

[boulderjohn]

Worthless and bogus are different IMO. Yes, the exit was worthless, and dangerous. But it exactly met the coast guard requirements, so it wasn’t bogus.

Sure. Because the word "bogus" has a specific definition in maritime law and doesn't mean "worthless."

Sorry. I was an English teacher and I used common English language definitions. I didn't realize there were such technical definitions of those terms when I posted. My mistake.

Edited for Clarity: The common definition of "bogus" is "not genuine or true; fake." In my humble opinion, an emergency exit that does not allow exit in an emergency is not an emergency exit, and thus fits the definition. The fact that the Coast Guard thought it was hunky dory, IMO, makes the Coast Guard bogus.

 

[drrich2]

What sort of medical emergency are you expecting to have, where an EMT can make an appreciable difference? Getting hit in the head by the ladder? A shark bite maybe, if you make it out of the water still alive?

Ditto for family doctor?

Well, assuming some of the staff are instructors or similar and Rescue Diver certified and thus had 1st aid training (whether they are presently competent in those skills is another discussion), then the question becomes how much added value does as EMT or Family Physician add beyond what they do can?

I can't give a great breakdown, other than to say the latter with prescriptive authority might be able to do a good deal more in some medical emergencies, if he's got a range of medications and instruments to use.

I personally don't plan to push for such a thing. Given the contentious debates some of us have had over divers withholding medical history on the liability waivers that'd require medical clearance, it seems clear the industry would prefer divers apt to need such things stay home. Then again, lots of chubby and/or old folks are in the customer base.

I appreciate your line of reasoning. Rather than going for 'just do whatever SOLAS entails, their risk is lower,' I think we should look at the specifics item-by-item and consider whether each is practical, cost-effective and of meaningful benefit.

 

[Wookie]

My 20 years on the Spree, we had 3 fatalities. Of the three, they all happened underwater, and 2 were recovered to the boat, one was lost and never recovered. Of the 2, both MI of some sort, one the ME told us that had it happened in the ER, he would have died anyway. The other we probably could have saved, even if he was on a recreational dive, but he had a simple MI in deco, buried in deco, and his buddies could not bring him to the surface without great risk to themselves.

However, we also had an additional 3 serious medical emergencies not counting DCS. We had a near drowning in the water, but were able to recover the diver and get him medivaced. We had a ruptured appendix and were likewise able to get him medivaced. We had a immersion pulmonary edema with bloody froth and everything and were close enough to shore to get her to the ER.

I am relatively certain that access to medical care in the US is what saved those folks.

What is interesting to me is that the paper does not take that kind of "accident" into account. It's looking at vessel accidents, collisions, allisions, sinkings, fire, accidents that result in the total or partial constructive loss of the vessel. There are lots of different kinds of accidents. Someone could spend their entire life trying to collate the data and the data would still be worthless.

 

[Vicko]

What is interesting to me is that the paper does not take that kind of "accident" into account. It's looking at vessel accidents, collisions, allisions, sinkings, fire, accidents that result in the total or partial constructive loss of the vessel. There are lots of different kinds of accidents. Someone could spend their entire life trying to collate the data and the data would still be worthless.

The author notes that and limits the accidents to ship related ones, even if they do happen on ships carrying divers.

The interesting thing when you start reading trough the analysis is how the Rea Sea accidents, especially fires were caught in time to stop them, just nobody did. I'm guessing that if you saw your crew member frying stuff up and leaving the galley to go for a smoke it would be the first and last time he did something so stupid.

Over there we have grease fires in broad daylight getting so involved that they can no longer be put out , passengers at muster stations that are allowed by crew to go back into the engulfed or flooded boat, electrical issues that happen multiple time before the boat finally catches on fire or looses all power and becomes a new reef...

 

[Wookie]

Over there we have grease fires in broad daylight getting so involved that they can no longer be put out , passengers at muster stations that are allowed by crew to go back into the engulfed or flooded boat, electrical issues that happen multiple time before the boat finally catches on fire or looses all power and becomes a new reef...

Are there any regulations requiring any training for mariners or any professional mariners onboard Egyptian small passenger vessels in coastwise trade?

I know from friends teaching at Pax River and elsewhere, Egyptians, as well as other folks from the Middle East, are very difficult to train as pilots.

 

[Jai Bar]

Two years ago, for example, I was on a liveaboard out from Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt. The first day an explosion rocked the boat- compressor blew out, the mechanic was injured with several cuts and a big laceration along all his arm- quite deep. I ran to grab the emergency medicine kit, to find only stuff like plaster, some gauze pads, cotton and several types of painkiller pills. Nothing to stop the heavy bleeding from the large gush. Had to improvise pressure bandage from towels.

Boat rushed to shore, ambulance waiting he was taken to ER. There were also several dozen scuba tanks waiting at the jetty, whcih the crew loaded to boat (because the compressor was blown) and placed all over the upper deck, improving safety of course (not), then the boat proceeded with the itinerary.

I am sure such incidents arr never mentioned, nor recorded, monitored or anything. We truly don't know the real prevalence of such events. Or events like me going down stairs with wet feet, falling through all of them like in cartoons- ended up with no broken bones, just a huge hematoma covering half my ass, was deep purple for several weeks. Galley fires, tanks rolling and falling on feet, head banged on ladder climbing up the boat, there are countless of ways to get injured on a liveaboard, the vast majority goes unreported unless there was death or severe injury and it makes local media, at best. Then, we do not know and can only estimate how many liveaboard boats, how many trips every year, the number of crew and divers/visitors to even get a minimal grasp of statistics. We are a far cry to having even remotely enough information to have a rough estimate.

 

[dmaziuk]

I appreciate your line of reasoning. Rather than going for 'just do whatever SOLAS entails, their risk is lower,' I think we should look at the specifics item-by-item and consider whether each is practical, cost-effective and of meaningful benefit.

I used to run servers and server rooms. Bang per buck is basically a log curve and you very quickly get to the point where double the cost buys you tiny amount of bang. E.g. if it's a log(2), as we all remember from our deco theory, after 6 steps it's down to 2%. I.e. going from 32 times the $$ to 64 times the $$ will help you save one in a hundred victims. And remember, @Wookie had 6 in 20 years so he'd have to run the Spree for over 3 centuries for that one to come along.

That does mean someone's going to die.

Edit: not 6 to 12, of course: 2^6 to 2^7. Slow caffeine uptake is my excuse.

 

[Vicko]

Are there any regulations requiring any training for mariners or any professional mariners onboard Egyptian small passenger vessels in coastwise trade?

I know from friends teaching at Pax River and elsewhere, Egyptians, as well as other folks from the Middle East, are very difficult to train as pilots.

I know that ships over 30BT require a registered captain and engineer, but to what actual standards they are trained I have no idea.
I know that normal crewmembers have a pay of around 40-50 euros per week + a cut of the tips, and that used to be a lot less. I doubt their training is done to any international standard.

 

[rjack321]

I know that ships over 30BT require a registered captain and engineer, but to what actual standards they are trained I have no idea.
I know that normal crewmembers have a pay of around 40-50 euros per week + a cut of the tips, and that used to be a lot less. I doubt their training is done to any international standard.

I suspect this is basically the same as Thailand, Philippines and most of the rest of the world's warmer water destinations.

 

[Jai Bar]

Here goes again, barely a few days after Egypt's Sea Legend catching fire and sinking:

Cruise Ship ‘The Oceanik’ Catches Fire in Raja Ampat

ASIATODAY.ID, PAPUA - A major fire occurred on the cruise ship The Oceanik, a ship carrying 23 domestic and foreign

asiatoday.id