cold water vs. warm water

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I am actually aware of checkout dives being done in local quarries with divers severely over-weighted... so I agree with this sentiment... however it still has little to do with cold water and more to do with bad Instruction. A well trained diver knows how to make equipment adjustments going back and forth from warm to cold water etc...

A little off topic - but to my point...

Just today I received an email from a guy who identified himself as "a new PADI diver." He was inquiring to find out if the 15CF HP (3442) tank I have for sale would be a good primary tank to replace his AL 80CF with. He went on to state that he really wanted a 3400+ PSI tank so that he could stay down longer.

I really wanted to ask him what PADI course he took and where... but I bit my tongue and politely explained to him that a 15CF tank was significantly smaller than an 80CF tank and was in fact a "pony" tank - not a primary tank. I explained even more than that... but what I'm getting at is who is out there teaching people? It scares me.

Does cold water need some different type of preperation - yes... but any well trained diver understands this right out of OW.
 
As you seem to think 80 degree F water temperature kills people, perhaps you might cite one case that will substantiate death of a diver by hypothermia in 80 degree water temperature. If all you have is scientific possibility (not probability), it has no credibility in this discussion imo.

[WATER TEMP (F) - EXHAUSTION OR UNCONSCIOUSNESS - EXPECTED TIME OF SURVIVAL]
70° – 80° 3 – 12 hours 3 hours – indefinite

offthewall1, you just did a great job of shooting yourself in the foot. DCBC contended that death from hypothermia at water temperatures of 80F was improbable, if not impossible. Your own chart indicates that exhaustion or unconsciousness would occur in 3-12 hours of immersion in water from 70 to 80F, and that time to death would be three hours to infinity. You chose to omit that "OVER 80.0" these times become "Indefinitely" and "Indefinitely." I suppose that BCDC's argument would be (from an operational perspective) unassailable had he stated that water of 80.1F would not kill people.

Thanks for posting!
 
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offthewall1, you just did a great job of shooting yourself in the foot. DCBC contended that death from hypothermia at water temperatures of 80F was improbable, if not impossible. Your own chart indicates that exhaustion or unconsciousness would occur in 3-12 hours of immersion in water from 70 to 80F, and that time to death would be three hours to infinity. You chose to omit that "OVER 80.0" these times become "Indefinitely" and "Indefinitely." I suppose that BCDC's argument would be (from an operational perspective) unassailable has he stated that water of 80.1F would not kill people.

Thanks for posting!

Again you're wrong. Lowering of the core body temperature to 95F degrees can kill. While it may take longer in 80F degree water - it will eventually happen. Furthermore, unconsciousness will almost undoubtedly kill a diver, as an unconscious diver - even one at the surface is susceptible to drowning - which would in fact be a death caused by hypothermia - although it would likely be ruled a drowning technically.

Because of this technicality, we may not have real numbers on hypothermic deaths in warm water - as they're likely to be simply ruled drownings. Yet another reason the stats posted in DAN don't tell the whole story.

I'm aware of diving deaths ruled heart attacks that clearly had other elements involved. Rulings by coroners don't tell the whole story... and therefore many stats on deaths are innacurate.

When a diver (in cold water) who surfaces, yells for help (and by witness accounts) reaches the surface with a fully inflated BCD - then sinks back beneath the surface, is recovered 5 minutes later drowned... and the coroner rules the incident a heart attack... don't we have to ask - when did the heart attack occur and was it the primary cause of death?

Examining this incident requires some thought. Did the diver begin to feel chest pain and realizing he was in trouble swim to the surface to yell for help - or was the diver in a state of panic, struggling to get to the surface because he was overweighted, reach the surface and yell for help, then while struggling and sinking back beneath the surface then have a heart attack realizing he was going to die? We will never know the answer to this question. Did cold water have anything at all to do with causing the heart attack? Did the fact the diver was obviously overweighted - and even while fully inflated - unable to establish positive buoyancy have anything to do with it?

We don't know. All we know is a person died in a cold water quarry. We know it was ruled a heart attack... but in the end, we still don't really know what happened - and we never will.
 
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70° – 80° 3 – 12 hours 3 hours – indefinite

Warmer than 80° ????

In response to my statement: "As you seem to think 80 degree F water temperature kills people, perhaps you might cite one case that will substantiate death of a diver by hypothermia in 80° water temperature." You provide figures of water temperature colder than 80°....

You seem to realize that the idea behind an exposure suit is to prevent hypothermia. What you fail to understand however, is that a suit may increase overheating and result in fluid loss, which may be more of a problem to the diver in warm water during extensive exposure.

Try wearing a Full 7 mm Wet Suit suit in 80°+ water and we'll see how long you last.

You fail to comprehend the difference between possible and the word practical. You seem unable to step back and realize the intent of the OP to highlight the dangers of cold water.

Rather than arguing your point to death, perhaps you might like to get on-board and talk about the subject. If you wish to argue the dangers of warm water in another thread; I'll be sure to respond. Alternatively, you can argue to you're blue in the face, but those of us that live outside academia will not continue to argue with possibility. Personally, I know better than to chase a "what if" conversation.
 
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I was asked to comment on this thread by Mpetryk. There is a lot of useful information and good discussion. I will pick a few bones, however.

First, the comparison of fatalities occurring in "inland waters" and "abroad" in the Fall 2009 Alert Diver 'Dive Slate' was improper. As was suggested by one person in this thread, the data capture by DAN is not the same for the two cases mentioned. Cases that occur in the US or Canada or those known to involve American citizens are actively followed. The Caribbean often gets a bit more attention, but with insufficient rigor to justify this as a meaningful discussion point. While the mention of "fatalities abroad" was completely inappropriate, the idea that swimming pool or tropical conditions do not adequately prepare divers for more complex environments is true. The fact that this subject is being discussed in the current thread is another positive sign.

I agree with the comments of some in this thread that absolute temperature is a red herring in terms of risk. Appropriate thermal protection removes most of the stress. There is likely to be a bit more load on the diver due to the increased mass (most important out of the water) and increased bulk and shifts in trim can become issues. These, though, are not huge factors for the prepared and healthy diver. Preparation is the key to avoiding trouble. The comment about cold water divers being safer when dropped into warm water conditions than the reverse is true for more reasons than temperature. For example, the warm water diver is likely to be less effective wearing three finger mitts for the first time than a diver used to wearing heavy mitts going barehanded.

Let's consider training. There has been a problem with a macho attitude in diving. Any instructor that shows the attitude of "I am great" and passes on some of that sense of "greatness" to his (sorry, but this will likely be gender specific) students has done them a disservice. Instructors need to be assiduous in helping students hone critical skills AND in making them realize that they are only getting a license to learn, not expertise. Several elements can relate directly to the current discussion. I will use mitts as the first example since they were mentioned above. Divers that will be wearing mitts in open water should begin to use them early on in pool training early so the sudden lost of dexterity is not an unnecessary stressor of open water training. This training evolution is a little harder to justify for tropical courses when the use of handwear is discouraged to minimize divers touching sensitive substrates. Warm water training should include some discussion of the added complexities of cold water diving so the candidate appreciates that additional challenges will arise when conditions get more complicated. The complications can come from changes in equipment, depth, visibility, current, overhead environments, etc.

Neutral buoyancy is a critical skill to put any diver on the right path. An instructor does a disservice to students when they are encouraged to settle on the bottom to practice skills. While it is not as easy to manage, practicing skills in the water column better prepares students for the real diving world. Similarly, many students are overweighted during dive training. This makes it easier to get them below the surface and/or to keep them on the bottom, but it is a tremendous disservice to their skill development. Any diver who argues for a given amount of weight because "I have always used that" was poorly trained. The impact of experience on buoyancy is critical. Novice divers should appreciate that critical and ongoing evaluation of weighting needs is important for comfort, performance and safety. The relaxed diver with a smaller lung volume (less anxiety) and greater ease of moving through the water can often lose a substantial amount of weight.

The neutral buoyancy discussion is not off topic. One comment in the string was blatantly misleading:

"a. Cold requires insulation -- insulation requires weight -- weight leads to overweighting and poor buoyancy control -- "

Yes, thicker neoprene or drysuits with increasing gas trapping due to greater insulation does require more external weight to achieve neutrality. The idea that this inevitably leads to "overweighting and poor buoyancy control" is nonsense. Adequate training, diligence and experience can preserve good neutral buoyancy with any reasonable equipment configuration. Cold water is not the problem; a lack of preparedness and competency may well be.

Time to turn to the hypothermia issue. Again, some good discussion with a bit of nonsense thrown in to remind us of the importance of fact checking. Sure, it is possible to get hypothermia in 80°F (27°C) water, but the person who expects to see it in divers probably also expects to win when buying a lottery ticket. The critical water temperature (temperature at which core temperature can be maintained for three hours by maximal vasoconstriction alone without shivering) varies as a function of body mass, the ratio of body mass to surface area, the thickness of skinfold insulation, and other lesser factors. The critical temperature for a semi-naked (i.e., bathing suit wearing), resting diver is 32-35°C (90-95°F). Light exercise decreased this to 29-33°C (84-91°F) Nakanishi et al. (1999). Craig and Dvorak (1968) found that 24°C (75°F) was the switchpoint temperature for core temperature protection through swimming. More heat was lost with swimming below this temperature but core temperature could be maintained by swimming efforts above this temperature. It is important to note that thermal stress will vary on an individual basis, but these numbers provide some foundation reference. My personal switchpoint for happily wearing dive skins instead of wetsuit is 82°F (28°C). I feel minimal thermal stress over the duration of a healthy length dive in water at this temperature. Yes, if I were lost at sea in water at this temperature I would ultimately have a problem with hypothermia, but this would only be a significant risk after many, many hours. Having additional protection is always desirable for bad days, but a rational understanding of true risk is important.

The article reached by link that talked about cold stress from Alaskan experience was misleading. It would have been more compelling if it were written by the expert instead of someone who had heard the expert lecture. Hypothermia is typically defined as a core temperature of 35°C (95°F) or less, not a temperature below 37°C (98.6°F). A core temperature between 35°C and an individual's normal temperature is not hypothermia. Many uninformed divers talk about being "hypothermic" when they should be saying "I'm cold." Typical cold research studies use a core temperature of 35°C (95°F) as an endpoint. The risk of life in an otherwise healthy individual is trivial at this point. It may feel uncomfortable but is of little significance. Again, for perspective, a good study evaluated survivors of serious cold exposure. Eight out of 26 had core temperatures at admission to hospital of 23.6±2.4°C (74.5±4.3°F). The critical factor for survival was no evidence of asphyxia (Farstad et al., 2001). In other words, if the airway is protected, we can recover from quite low core temperatures.

Even a modest amount of protection provided by a wetsuit or drysuit system prolongs tolerance and survival time dramatically. I frequently refer to an example of a diver wearing a drysuit with a substantial leak completing a 43 minute dive in -2°C (29°F) water (Pollock, 2007). The effect of core temperature of this quite stressful dive was surprisingly small. It should reinforce the point that more homework would be helpful for those who expect hypothermia to be a likely outcome of diving even under extreme conditions.

Neal W. Pollock, Ph.D.
Divers Alert Network
6 West Colony Place
Durham, NC 27705
and
Center for Hyperbaric Medicine and Environmental Physiology
Duke University Medical Center
P.O. Box 3823
Durham, NC 27710


References

Craig AB, Dvorak M. Thermal regulation during water immersion. J Appl Physiol 1968; 21: 1577-1585.

Farstad M, Andersen KS, Koller ME, Grong K, Segadal L, Husby P. Rewarming from accidental hypothermia by extracorporeal circulation: a retrospective study. Eur J Cardiothor Surg 2001; 20: 58-64.

Nakanishi Y, Kimura T, Yokoo Y. Maximal physiological responses to deep water running at thermoneutral temperature. Applied Human Science. 1999; 18(2): 31-5.

Pollock NW. Scientific diving in Antarctica: history and current practice. Diving Hyperb Med. 2007; 37(4): 204-211.
 
Thanks Neal; I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I believe you spoke last fall at a Hyperbaric Conference in Toronto. I was stationed at DCIEM as a Diving Officer in the 70's.
 
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Thank you for supplying the requested clarifications, Dr. Pollock.
 
Try wearing a Full 7 mm Wet Suit suit in 80°+ water and we'll see how long you last.

I have a co-worker who wears a full 7 mm year-round here in Hawaii, and a hood; in the winter she wears a vest underneath.

I have seen many 100 lb asian women who after a 40 minute dive wearing a full 3 mm in ~80 deg water are shivering so hard they can not move themselves underwater!
 
I agree that the conclusion, presented by the OP, is unassailable. To wit: "warm- and pool-water practice "may" [sic] not prepare a diver for the rigours of cold water diving."

This is information a beginning diver, or a returning diver, MIGHT NOT REALIZE.

What is also important to realize, and is something the article alludes to, is that accidents are not "caused" by one thing: that's like trying to reduce the course of history to the lack of the nail in the horse's shoe.

Accidents are caused by a chain of errors, one of which links identified in the chain - failure to follow standards and procedures - is routinely smashed to bits by divers. Remember your OW course outline? Remember how after 4 open water dives you would be certified to dive to 60 fsw ...*and here's the kicker*... in the same conditions in which you were trained? Breaking that rule of certification happens frequently (i.e. warm water diver in cold water) and doing that makes a diver one step closer to an accident.

Of course, given a put-together diver in all other respects, that's how this diver gains experience. But it is necessary to visualize this chain of events. It's good accident prevention, yet it is lacking in most divers. It is important to recognize that a person can break 1 or 2 of the links in an error chain and that will (likely) NOT cause an accident. Around 3 or 4 breaks and an accident is likely. Break 5 or more, and an accident is virtually certain. (At which point we bust out our risk management models and look at consequences :eyebrow: .)

Point is, I think the OP was right in bringing it the attention of new divers that professionals think that cold water diving is ceteris paribus more dangerous to a warm water certified diver than warm water diving.

Peace.
VI
 
I have a co-worker who wears a full 7 mm year-round here in Hawaii, and a hood; in the winter she wears a vest underneath.

I have seen many 100 lb asian women who after a 40 minute dive wearing a full 3 mm in ~80 deg water are shivering so hard they can not move themselves underwater!

You bring up an excellent point halemano. Different people have different tolerances to cold. I was addressing offthewall1. He is situated in the NE, so I assumed that he's somewhat conditioned to cold. I live in Canada, so the people you describe would most likely go hypothermic by simply looking at the water in the North Atlantic. LOL
 
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