The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Jax]

And with that, the thread died.

 

[Diver0001]

Ok...I'll stop now. But you really need a course on reading comprehension.

*sigh* yeah, you often say that when you're unable or unwilling to make yourself clear....

Ok I'll try again.

What I *think* you were trying to say is that the training wasn't thorough enough for your liking.

I can certainly believe that. Training quality varies enormously from one instructor to the other because of teh 'fox guarding the hen house' effect I mentioned.

I think you also said that the instructor checked off skills after doing them once even though your GF was uncomfortable.

I can believe that too. Some instructors simply aren't very good at it. I still find it odd that your GF either didn't say anything about being uncomfortable or she did and the instructor didn't respond appropriately.

I can also understand that you're saying that *if* an instructor wants to botch teaching a skill by doing it all firmly anchored on the bottom of the pool and spasmodically struggling through every little moment of having his students neutrally buoyant that standards allow for that. This is true. Standards allow for instructors to do pretty much everything firmly anchored to the bottom and in that sense they are not required to train someone to "dive" as much as to "survive under water".

---->> not required...but also not the intention <<----

However, as I said, standards are just a list of skills so an instructor who actually knows how to dive themselves can use those very same standards and train someone to dive just fine.

The big issue is that BOTH of these things are allowed--training "underwater survivors" and training "divers"--and it's left almost entirely up to the instructor to decide how good the results need to be.

That might sound funny but it's true. There are no tests in the QA system to check if the instructor actually taught skills to be "repeatable" "fluid" and "fault free" and absolutly no test (or requirement) to see if the student can perform core skills, like clearing a mask, while swimming neutrally through the water.

It's all left up to the instructor.

And as we know from the amount of moaning being done about it on the internet, a great many instructors would appear to take the easy road. Some students probably would take the easy road too, some don't know what they don't know and some find this objectionable.

But I'll say it again, and hope that the coin falls.

Standards define a list of skills and it defines mastery. An instructor who does not teach to mastery is actually in violation of the standards. The problem is, nobody checks. It's just assumed taht all instructors will teach to mastery, but they don't all do that.

As for the standards: Are there holes in the standards? Yes, there are a couple of biggies. Not requiring students to be able to perform some core skills while neutrally bouyant is one of them. A vastly inadequate "bar" for comfort and technique while swimming neutrally is another. Zero in-water attention for the buddy system and/or developing any kind of situational awareness is yet another and I have a few other pet peves that are more details.

Instructors who want to focus more attention on these items can do it, but they're not required to do it. For example, the standards require practicing neutral swimming for a sum total of 10 metres during mod 3. My students swim anywhere between 1.5 and 2 km in the pool before mod 5 because I think it's a big deal that they learn this skill well. As a result, my students don't have any problems doing the core skills neutrally buoyant either. It takes time but it's not prohibited by standards to teach to this bar. In fact the old version of the standards called this "time for fun and skills practice". All I did was structure how that time is used.

And that's why there is such a huge spread of how good divers look after the OW course.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Not quite Rod.

Since you have mentioned PADI, I'll point out that the "minimum standards" are the same as the certification standards. With other agencies, the instructor may deem their agency standards insufficient for certification and may add additional skill-sets and knowledge that they personally see as appropriate.

I know this is a long post but I would ask people to read it so you can put DCBC's anti-PADI-POV in it's correct context.

The quoted point is just the tip of the iceberg. DCBC consistently chooses to misinform people on how PADI instructors are required to act. In this post I will expose three of DCBC's anti-PADI-POV pillars and attempt to set the record straight.

First:
The course standards (the bar) is basically set for the easiest conditions... let's say the tropics. That's the "minimum" standard. (although we just heard from BoulderJohn that this is a bit of a misnomer)

But PADI, like all other agencies, understands that not all divers learn to dive in the tropics. There is this little thing called "local conditions".

DCBC consistently tells people that PADI instructors are only permitted to train to minimum standards. That's a lie. PADI instructors, like all other instructors from all other agencies are told to train their students for "local conditions". In some cases, that's the minimum. In many cases it is not.

I said in the previous post above that I have my OW students swim between 1.5 and 2km in the pool during training. I don't just do this arbitrarily. I feel they *need* that because of our "local conditions". They need better than average buoyancy control to keep them from crawling over the bottom and kicking up silt. They need a better than average level of comfort swimming because outside the water is turbid and cold and teaching to the minimum requirement would create too much stress for them. They need better than average buddy contact/awareness (one of my big-3 items) because we have "local conditions" with 3 metres of visibility and they'd get lost 15 seconds into the dive if they didn't.

All of these things are *well above* the minimum bar for mastery and it is fully expected of me as a PADI instructor to adjust that bar to suit my "local conditions".

DCBC would have people believe that doing what I do is a standards violation and that I"m required by the heavy-handed evil agency to "undertrain" my students for "local conditions". He says as much in a great many of his posts and then backs it up by giving users his extensive and impressive resumé so they will think "oh... he's a bonifide expert so it must be true." Moreover, DCBC consistently, and we can only assume deliberately given his vast experience, confuses standards (the list of skills) with mastery (the bar for performance of those skills). He bakes this into his posts in such a way that the unsuspecting reader will think that if someone can't dive very well that PADI didn't define a high enough "standard", when in fact, they did, but the *delivery* probably sucked.

Given his self-indicated expertise in this area, I would conclude that this can only be a vindictive anti-PADI (bashing) lie that DCBC repeats over and over and over again so people will start to believe that it's true. Well it isn't.

Secondly:
DCBC often states that PADI instructors are not permitted to teach anything that's not in the standards.

Wrong again

If your "local conditions" require you to teach them how to dive in a drysuit during the OW course, you must do it.

If your "local conditions" mean that your students will be diving in current every day then you are required to teach them how to do that.

If your "local conditions" are at altitude then you must teach your students how to accommodate those conditions during the OW course.

If your "local conditions" are so challenging that you believe taht your students need 15 dives in OW before certification, then you just do the dives!

.... I could go on with a long list but most people will see the point by now.

DCBC would have people believe that a PADI instructor who adds extra theory or dives, as described above is in violation of standards. That's not true. He also repeatedly backs up his bash-PADI-POV with a particularly insipient1/2 truth by repeating over and over that a PADI instructor cannot TEST for these things.

However, it's a 1/2 truth because while there are sometimes no "official" agency tests for things you need to teach, you are *still* required by standards to teach the things that you *must* teach to mastery. Mastery is the one and only bar. This means they have to get it. If I make my own test or talk to them for hours until I'm sure they got it, or make hand-outs that they staple into their book... all perfectly ok. PADI just doesn't have a test for everything.

Third:
Another pillar of DCBC's Anti-PADI-POV is to state (and give his resumé so people will think it's true) that an instructor MUST certify any student who meets the minimum standard.

another insipient 1/2 truth.

The truth here is that *after* (repeat *after*) the last OW check out dive, if the student has met all of the course conditions and has learned everything they need to know for local diving (to the bar of mastery) then you must issue the card. Why does PADI do this? It is done because not all instructors are ethical and they want to avoid instructors withholding certification cards as a means to "pressure" (ex)students into doing things, like signing up for another course, buying a BCD etc etc. The fact that PADI offers this *protection* to their students is highly positive, in fact, and it's a concern, I believe, that other agencies don't have similar controls.

However, you are not required--and that's the 1/2 lie in his 1/2 truth--to continue training any student if they're not able to learn the required skills to the bar of mastery. If you do get to the last OW checkout dive with them then you have *already* taught everything the agency requires and everything local conditions require and there is no reason not to cert them. PADI even stipulates that you must "master" all the skills in mod-1 before moving to mod-2, for example, so if someone still can't clear their mask on the last checkout dive then someone dropped the ball... This, however, is not an issue with standards. It's an issue with *delivery*

As a PADI instructor you are perfectly free to halt the training at any point and for any reason. You must write them a referral if you do, but you are under no *obligation* to continue to train or to certify any student you don't believe is ready to progress. To use my previous example of swimming, if I had a student in my course who refused to learn how to swim, I would have to tell them that I wouldn't be prepared to train them.

It's that simple.

Recap
DCBC repeatedly tells people that PADI instructors are required to teach to minimum standards

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions, not for "ideal" conditions.

DCBC tells people that PADI instructors are unable to add necessary material to the course

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions even if something in the course material is missing.

DCBC tells people that PADI instructors are required to certify every student that achieves minimum standards.

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to train their students to local conditions. If they cannot meet your expectations as instructor then you must halt the training, not certify them.

I hope a lot of people read this post because it clears up a few points of deliberate misinformation being spread on the board by people who present themselves as authorities in diving and diver training but have become so cynical, jaded and hateful that they propagate these lies to turn people off of the system.

R..

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Sorry...Thats a true story.

Happens pretty much every weekend at lake miniwanka

Now that is scary and there really is no good reason for it. Is the vis that bad? I mean I've done checkouts where the vis has been degraded by "rototillers" to 2-3 feet and you can still keep everyone together if you reduce class sizes and stay alert.

 

[DCBC]

I know this is a long post but I would ask people to read it so you can put DCBC's anti-PADI-POV in it's correct context.

The quoted point is just the tip of the iceberg. You consistently choose to misinform people on how PADI instructors are required to act. In this post I will expose three of DCBC's anti-PADI-POV pillars and attempt to set the record straight.

Perhaps it is you who is confused. Yes, let's set the record straight!

First:
The course standards (the bar) is basically set for the easiest conditions... let's say the tropics. That's the "minimum" standard.

But PADI, like all other agencies, understands that not all divers learn to dive in the tropics. There is this little thing called "local conditions".

You, dear Wayne, consistently tell people that PADI instructors are only permitted to train to minimum standards. That's a lie. PADI instructors, like all other instructors from all othre agencies are told to train their students for "local conditions". In some cases, that's the minimum. In many cases it is not.

This is not entirely correct, so listen closely I'll try to be more specific so you can understand. PADI instructors may not test on anything other than what is specifically written in the standards. If the standards are met, you must certify the student.

In your words "the bar is basically set for the easiest conditions... let's say the tropics." If I'm training a student in the North Atlantic, if they can meet the standards i.e. the bar, I must certify them period.

It would seem that you are full if your own "expertise." Unfortunately, you are not very well informed. I was specifically censured by PADI HQ for teaching past the standards (or minimum standards if you are an instructor with an agency other than PADI). I included rescue into my basic program and taught altitude tables to my students. Local diving included diving in mountain lakes. I was explicitly told by PADI than I would not be covered by PADI liability insurance if an accident occurred while teaching anything outside of the PADI standards for any training program! .

Secondly:
You often state that PADI instructors are not permitted to teach anything that's not in the standards.

Wrong again.

If your "local conditions" require you to teach them how to dive in a drysuit during the OW course, you must do it.

If your "local conditions" mean that your students will be diving in current every day then you are required to teach them how to do that.

If your "local conditions" are at altitude then you must teach your students how to accommodate those conditions during the OW course.

If your "local conditions" are so challenging that you believe taht your students need 15 dives in OW before certification, then you just do the dives!

.... I could go on with a long list but most people will see the point by now.

So you are insisting that you can test on knowledge and skill-sets outside of the specified standards. Perhaps another PADI Instructor would like to comment on if this is allowed by your instructor organization.

It has been my personal experience as a PADI instructor that you would in-fact be teaching outside of the standards. You may not test on anything outside of the PADI program.

Third:
...if the student has met all of the course conditions and has learned everything they need to know for local diving (as described above) then you must issue the card.

However, you are not required--and that's the 1/2 lie in your 1/2 truth--to continue training any student if they're not meeting standards. ...You must write them a referral if you do, but you are under no *obligation* to continue to train or to certify any student you don't believe is ready.

Yes, you must certify them if they meet the standards. Yes, you can cease their training and refer them.

Recap

You repeatedly tell people that PADI instructors are required to teach to minimum standards

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions, not for "ideal" conditions.

You tell people that PADI instructors are unable to add necessary material to the course

No. I tell people that PADI has standards and PADI instructors may not examine on anything outside of these to ascertain if the diver is to be certified or not. According to PADI HQ, a PADI instructor teaching anything outside the specific PADI program is in contravention of standards and is not covered by PADI liability insurance.

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions even if something in the course material is missing.

That is not my experience as a PADI instructor, nor is it in-line with information I've received from PADI HQ.

You tell people that PADI instructors are required to certify every student that achieves minimum standards.

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to train their students to local conditions. If they cannot meet your expectations as instructor then you must halt the training, not certify them.

Again, this is not my experience as a PADI instructor. If they meet PADI standards, you must certify them. You have the option of giving them a referral, but are not sanctioned to teach anything outside of the course standards.

I suggest you call PADI HQ and ask if you can teach altitude tables, rescue or buddy breathing to an Openwater class and let me know what they say. Don't forget to ask if you are covered by PADI insurance to teach these things and get back to me.

I hope a lot of people read this post because it clears up a few points of deliberate misinformation being spread on the board by people who present themselves as authorities in diving and diver training but have become so cynical, jaded and hateful that they propagate these lies to turn people off of the system.

I do not lie. My position and experiences are obviously different than yours. That does not make either of us lairs. It does however speak to your professionalism that you have said what you have, in the way you have said it. Perhaps you are just uninformed or the situation has changed.

My dear Rob, the information I've conveyed is accurate from my perspective. It was because of these experiences, that I left teaching through PADI after 17 years.

 

[The Chairman]

So a good instructor is a mind reader?

She completed the skill.

What was the debriefing AFTER the skill? Did the instructor ASK her how it went? How she felt? Verbal student feedback is essential for any competent instructor.

 

[Peter Guy]

Interesting couple of posts from Diver0001 and DCBC because both appear to be an accurate statement of PADI rules as far as I can tell. The problem is that they are discussing two different things - R because he is trying to be helpful (in my opinion) and DCBC because he had such a bad experience which has resulted in the very low opinion.

Let's be "perfectly clear" about "PADI Standards" -- there is a huge gray area and that gray area is:

What is Mastery?

What is "beyond the scope" of the Class? and

What is within the "scope of expanded discussion" of topics?

This, BTW, was the subject of a thread I started while doing my IDC since in one of the UW Journal articles that I was required to read there was a discussion similar to what R and D are having (without the vitriol). THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER to the question at the border.

I think it is clear that DCBC would be wrong to add "Rescue" to the requirements under the standards since there is NO "rescue" portion of OW. Likewise, just because one may dive at altitude would not necessitate learning the altitude tables.

BUT, if one was learning diving where I originally did (at 3000+ feet), learning the altitude tables would seem to be a natural, and mandatory, part of the course and a reasonable "expansion" of the basics of the OW course. Likewise, learning how to clear one's mask without silting out the area would also seem to be a reasonable "expansion" of the basic required skills (neutral buoyancy, hovering and mask clearing) in areas where that is important. (That skill, BTW, was one that may have gotten me into a wee bit of a problem but THAT is another thread.)

Where is the line? I think the line is -- are the skills "introduced" already in the course and are you merely refining them (R) or are you introducing new "skills" because you think you know better (D).

 

[Diver0001]

It would seem that you are full if your own "expertise." Unfortunately, you are not very well informed. I was specifically censured by PADI HQ for teaching past the standards (or minimum standards if you are an instructor with an agency other than PADI). I included rescue into my basic program and taught altitude tables to my students. Local diving included diving in mountain lakes. I was explicitly told by PADI than I would not be covered by PADI liability insurance if an accident occurred while teaching anything outside of the PADI standards for any training program! .

I wonder what year that was, Wayne, and what prompted them to do that. Could it be that you were teaching things that were so out of step with recreational standards that they felt a need to whistle you down?

Of course there are things you *can't* teach divers in the OW course too. No overhead's to pick an example.

And no.... they don't want you teaching OW, AOW and Rescue for the students to get their OW card. There is a line (grey area) between doing what is required for local circumstances and exceeding the standards to such a degree that it isn't "responsible" in terms of insurance.

Anno 2010 they talk about "risk management", which is not a black and white statement. I know you want to make this sound like a black and white issue but it's only black and white in your mind, Wayne.

That's another one of the things you do. Make things "black and white" that aren't.

So you are insisting that you can test on knowledge and skill-sets outside of the specified standards. Perhaps another PADI Instructor would like to comment on if this is allowed by your instructor organization.

I'm saying you can teach them what they need to know. For example, in Europe, we're required by EU norms to teach open water students about gas management. It's not in the course, but I can teach it, and I must teach it because of local circumstances.

Same with drysuit.

Obviously you think of things that PADI wouldn't agree with. I'm sure they wouldn't agree if you wanted to teach them how to drive a zodiac, although this could arguably be necessary in some places.

It has been my personal experience as a PADI instructor that you would in-fact be teaching outside of the standards. You may not test on anything outside of the PADI program.

You're using TEST and TEACH synonymously. I think we already established that these diliberate misdirections are central to your POV.

No. I tell people that PADI has standards and PADI instructors may not examine on anything outside of these to ascertain if the diver is to be certified or not. According to PADI HQ, a PADI instructor teaching anything outside the specific PADI program is in contravention of standards and is not covered by PADI liability insurance.

TEST vs. TEACH again. I can ask an OW student to swim through hoops to improve their bouyancy even though it's not a "standard". Likewise with other things they need to know for diving locally.

Sure you can think of skills that have no relevance to the course and no relevance the local conditions that you might want to teach. I'm sure if you can't make the case that it's something they need to know then PADI would tell you that you can't teach it.

That is not my experience as a PADI instructor, nor is it in-line with information I've received from PADI HQ.

You're not a PADI instructor. You've said yourself that you were certted as an instructor in the stone age of diver training coming from another agency and I don't recall if you ever said that you took an IDC. Maybe you did, but I doubt that John Cronin really cared if you did or not.

You also said before that you taught PADI for 17 years and you've been in teaching for 38 so 38-17=21 and you haven't, by my calculations, given a PADI programme for about 20 years. You keep calling yourself a PADI instructor, but if I understood everything you wrote, that's a lie too. You're an EX PADI instructor who hasn't taught in the system for more than 20 years.

Again, this is not my experience as a PADI instructor. If they meet PADI standards, you must certify them.

AFTER the last dive. Leaving out details like this is the very foundation of your 1/2 truths and mis-information that is so central to your negative POV.

You have the option of giving them a referral, but are not sanctioned to teach anything outside of the course standards.

So every OW student who ever learned in a drysuit is doing something illegally? You know this isn't true. It's 1/2 true, just like almost everything you say.

YES, you can teach things specific to the local environment that are not described in standards. Gas management, drysuit diving, in my case....

NO, you can't add a bunch of irrelevant stuff to the standards because you feel like it. There are agencies that allow that but PADI doesn't.

That's the whole truth.

I suggest you call PADI HQ and ask if you can teach altitude tables, rescue or buddy breathing to an Openwater class and let me know what they say.

On two of those they would tell me yes. This is deliberate misdirection again. I can't teach them how to fly a rocket ship but I can sure teach them rescue and altitude... but PADI would tell me I have to do it like this:

Altitude is a specialty in the PADI system. I can sell it together with the OW course but I have to sequence them. First the OW skills and then the altitude stuff and I have to give them 2 cards. If my local conditions required it, I would have to do that.

Rescue is a different PADI programme too.. I can sell OW, AOW and RESCUE as one package and teach it all to them but it results in 3 cards and the courses have to be sequenced. If students have the time, inclination and money, then PADI would not only allow this: They would ENCOURAGE it!

Buddy breathing is a special case. and you do have 1/2 a point here. It's not a standard (or won't be soon) and I would have a hard time arguing that it is required because of something special in my local environment. I could still use it as a confidence builder, although PADI would probably tell me that it's not a good idea for "risk management" reasons. So yes. There are one or two cases like this of skills that are relevant to diving, that you'd have trouble with if you put them in the course. BTW I won't defend PaDI on this because I think it was wrong to take out BB. But that's MY POV.

I do not lie.

I believe that you believe this. In your mind, however, there is very little room for things not being black and white and you structurally confuse your OPINION with FACTS. That's also central to your POV warrior attitude. You may not see it as lying and I'm sure you say the things you say because you're very sure of them... but the truth is often not what you're saying.

Like I said before, and I will repeat it here, you use 1/2 truths, a great many straw man arguments and in some cases out and out lies (like saying PADI's OW course recommends 27 hours when the FACT is that number is 31)....

You may not experience that as lies but how are we supposed to read it then?

My dear Rob, the information I've conveyed is accurate from my perspective. It was because of these experiences, that I left teaching through PADI after 17 years.

Exactly my point. Your perspective. Your POV. Your OPINION. But FACTS and OPINION are not the same.

I'm sorry you question my professionalism because of exposing how your anti-PADI POV works to the users. I can understand you being upset about that and not wanting people to see how it works, but it's in the open now. Attacking me for that isn't going to change it.

I've really had enough of your PADI bashing, Wayne, and I'm going to continue to expose it for what it is. I'm sorry but I believe that's the professional thing to do. I know you don't like it. You're not supposed to.

R..

 

[Jax]

I'm not sure which is more fun -- watching the debate or learning about the philosophy of diver training from the rest of the posts. . .

:joke:

 

[Kingpatzer]

Buddy breathing is a special case. and you do have 1/2 a point here. It's not a standard (or won't be soon) and I would have a hard time arguing that it is required because of something special in my local environment. I could still use it as a confidence builder, although PADI would probably tell me that it's not a good idea for "risk management" reasons. So yes. There are one or two cases like this of skills that are relevant to diving, that you'd have trouble with if you put them in the course. BTW I won't defend PaDI on this because I think it was wrong to take out BB. But that's MY POV.

I was under the impression that buddy breathing has become a stated "do not teach this to OW students" item.