The Philosophy of Diver Training

[warmwaterturner]

As someone who has advanced training in law enforcement and emergency response, I see the same type of reduced training in my employment field. It is very concerning. Lives are at stake. I fear for the "easiness in training" that tends to drift in over time. I am only recently certified...and to be completely honest...the basic level required is not where near adequate. Hence, I am doing everything I can to raise myself to the level of competence required.

 

[The Chairman]

What instructor agency(s) are you certified through NetDoc?

NAUI and SDI/TDI.

 

[JeffG]

Now that is scary and there really is no good reason for it. Is the vis that bad? I mean I've done checkouts where the vis has been degraded by "rototillers" to 2-3 feet and you can still keep everyone together if you reduce class sizes and stay alert.

Viz is usually around 15ft. Add in the kneeling in the silt....goes to 0.

 

[JeffG]

What was the debriefing AFTER the skill? Did the instructor ASK her how it went? How she felt? Verbal student feedback is essential for any competent instructor.

I don't know.

 

[The Chairman]

I wouldn't ask that you do. I would however ask that you get the facts before you call someone a liar.

This is a misrepresentation, as I don't believe that Rob has called you, or anyone else, a liar. Please quote him to prove your statement true.

If someone has an experience with an agency, equipment manufacturer, or an individual and relates that experience, I don't see that as bashing.

Quite often the recollection of an incident is affected by preconceived notions, outright biases and the need to look good. You have presented only one side of the story, and it's obvious to a number of us that you have quite a few preconceived notions, a number of outright biases and an intense need to look good. As Rob has pointed out time and time again, you have a DISTORTED view of reality and don't want to be disturbed by mere facts that render your POV as such.

Bashing (in my view) is saying something that isn't true about an agency, equipment manufacturer, or an individual.

Bingo! Yahtzee! You actually get it. But why do you keep bashing? You have confused facts with conclusions and inferences.

• Fact: PADI does not allow buddy breathing as a tested skill.
• Conclusion: PADI is all about reducing skills.
• Inference: PADI is all about reducing skills to make more money and to sell more regulators, even if it causes more diver deaths.

While the actual fact is not bashing, the conclusion is and the following inference you would have us believe is even more so.

Like when you called me a liar, that's bashing.

Again, if he called you a "liar", I must have missed it. Now, misrepresenting Rob by insisting that he is calling you a liar when he has not, violates a number of principles on which we base a courteous and engaging discussion.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't know.

Honest enough. Education is best done when feedback is proffered to the instructor, less so when it has to be extracted by the instructor, and often missed when it simply does not happen. Ultimately, the instructor should encourage an open and honest dialog of feelings and comprehension of the skills throughout the course.

 

[JeffG]

This is a misrepresentation, as I don't believe that Rob has called you, or anyone else, a liar. Please quote him to prove this statement false.

Recap
DCBC repeatedly tells people that PADI instructors are required to teach to minimum standards

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions, not for "ideal" conditions.

DCBC tells people that PADI instructors are unable to add necessary material to the course

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to prepare students for local conditions even if something in the course material is missing.

DCBC tells people that PADI instructors are required to certify every student that achieves minimum standards.

-- a lie. PADI instructors are required to train their students to local conditions. If they cannot meet your expectations as instructor then you must halt the training, not certify them.

I hope a lot of people read this post because it clears up a few points of deliberate misinformation being spread on the board by people who present themselves as authorities in diving and diver training but have become so cynical, jaded and hateful that they propagate these lies to turn people off of the system.

R..

liar

li·ar

–noun
a person who tells lies.

 

[Diver0001]

Bashing (in my view) is saying something that isn't true about an agency, equipment manufacturer, or an individual.

1/2 truths (which are also 1/2 lies), misdirections, misinformation, strawman arguments, expressing opinion as fact and all of those things with a highly negative undertone I also construe as bashing.

Like when you called me a liar, that's bashing.

I guess "liar" is maybe a bit strong becuase it connotes deliberately saying something that you know isn't true. I do believe that you BELIEVE they are true, even if they are not.

I'll try to think of a more appropriate word for that.

R..

 

[DCBC]

How many years has it been since you were an active PADI instructor? Have you taken an IDC course, and when? Have you been to a CD training course? When?

I have not taught through PADI for 18 years. I left the organization because of the reasons I've previously given. Anything that I've posted has been as a result of my direct experiences as a PADI Instructor, a PADI Training Facility owner and conversations with PADI HQ and it's Co-Founder.

Any current knowledge that I have about PADI is through communication with PADI instructors that are currently active and active PADI instructors doing cross-overs in my capacity as an Instructor Trainer/Examiner.

If there is anything that I've said on this thread (or any other) about current PADI Standards that are misleading, please correct this by posting the specific PADI Standard that clearly indicates that my statement was incorrect. I will promptly retract any incorrect statement.

King, you are not a PADI Instructor, nor have you ever been. That does not stop you from participating in any of these discussions, nor should it. If you are saying that PADI now allows their Instructors to teach beyond PADI Standards please correct me. In the past, this wasn't the case. PADI specified what was to be taught, what was optional and what was prohibited.

The primary difference between PADI and the other agencies, has been the amount of input the instructor is allowed to have with the program s/he is teaching.

PADI

Agency Standard Achieved = Must Certify

Other Agencies

Agency Standard Achieved ("minimum standards") + Instructor Standards Achieved = May Certify

Regardless of what NetDoc may elude to, instructors with an agency (other than PADI) do teach their own way. That does not mean that they are "rouge instructors;" their Students still must meet the agencies "minimum requirements," but they are expected to add anything that will be required for local conditions (and anything else they feel may be useful).

PADI is the only agency I've heard of that has censored an instructor for teaching anything that exceeds the program being taught.

 

[The Chairman]

It's a fine point, but he never calls him a liar. However, I can see how it could be inferred by his use of the word "lie" in reference to DCBC's claims. I avoid the word since it can cause such ill feelings and can often be mistakenly inferred in such a manner. There are better ways to label something as "false".