UK Custom Diver waterproof canister CDFFC

Peter69_56 · Mar 14, 2013

I bought a UK Custom Diver waterproof canister CDFFC from NZ Diving in Oct 2011 to hold a PLB when diving. Some 9 months later it had leaked on a number of dives. and near wiped out my $600 PLB (luckily the initial leaks were small and I had used a plastic zip seal bag around it) Its rated to 100m and I had been diving in the order of 20-35m. I changed the O rings a number of times and checked the seal faces but it still leaked. Sent it back to NZ Diving on 2/9/11 and they, after a significant delay 6/11/11 (they said originally immediate turn around on delivery to them???) sent the canister back "free of charge" (gee thanks guys) and said there was nothing wrong with it. They had changed the O rings and tested it.

I then used it on a couple of dives to 10m and found it 1/3 full of water. After further discussion I checked and rechecked O rings, seal faces etc and then dived to 6m and it leaked. Posted it back on 7/1/12 and finally received a new one around early Feb 2012. To date this one hasnt leaked. The original canister seemed to have an O ring size of 66mm on the bottom O ring and a seal face of 66mm so no tight fit. The second O ring seemed to have a similar issue.

The story should have ended there but to my dismay a work colleague purchased one with a PLB just recently and after 3 dives found his $600 PLB drowned and now completely dead. He is in the process of contacting Custom Diver about the issue.

So my question here is how many people here use this canister and how many have had them leak, as Custom Diver say they have had no issues with them? After these experiences I find this a hard pill to swallow.

sander8 · Mar 14, 2013

I have one with about 100 dives on it, to depths of 35 meters, and have had no problems at all. The only tricky thing with these is not to tighten them too much before diving. If you do, once cooled down at depth it will be very hard to reopen when back topside. The instructions tell you to close the canister just gently hand tight. That is good advice.

I have never seen a leak in mine.

Peter69_56:
I bought a UK Custom Diver waterproof canister CDFFC from NZ Diving in Oct 2011 to hold a PLB when diving. Some 9 months later it had leaked on a number of dives. and near wiped out my $600 PLB (luckily the initial leaks were small and I had used a plastic zip seal bag around it) Its rated to 100m and I had been diving in the order of 20-35m. I changed the O rings a number of times and checked the seal faces but it still leaked. Sent it back to NZ Diving on 2/9/11 and they, after a significant delay 6/11/11 (they said originally immediate turn around on delivery to them???) sent the canister back "free of charge" (gee thanks guys) and said there was nothing wrong with it. They had changed the O rings and tested it.

I then used it on a couple of dives to 10m and found it 1/3 full of water. After further discussion I checked and rechecked O rings, seal faces etc and then dived to 6m and it leaked. Posted it back on 7/1/12 and finally received a new one around early Feb 2012. To date this one hasn’t leaked. The original canister seemed to have an O ring size of 66mm on the bottom O ring and a seal face of 66mm so no tight fit. The second O ring seemed to have a similar issue.

The story should have ended there but to my dismay a work colleague purchased one with a PLB just recently and after 3 dives found his $600 PLB drowned and now completely dead. He is in the process of contacting Custom Diver about the issue.

So my question here is how many people here use this canister and how many have had them leak, as Custom Diver say they have had no issues with them? After these experiences I find this a hard pill to swallow.

Golo · Mar 14, 2013

I have a custom divers canister (rated to 180m?), though haven't been diving since I got it, so haven't tried it yet.

As for O-Ring sizes, did you measure them while installed or out of the groove?

I guess out of curiosity I will measure my canister and O-Rings and check squeeze at installation. Though, when closing the cylinder you should feel a difference between having the O-Rings installed or not.

Peter69_56 · Mar 14, 2013

Golo:
I have a custom divers canister (rated to 180m?), though haven't been diving since I got it, so haven't tried it yet.

As for O-Ring sizes, did you measure them while installed or out of the groove?

As for O-Ring sizes, did you measure them while installed or out of the groove?

I guess out of curiosity I will measure my canister and O-Rings and check squeeze at installation. Though, when closing the cylinder you should feel a difference between having the O-Rings installed or not.

The O rings are 2mm thick and I measured them in the groove assembled and also out of the groove. Also measured the groove size as well. The latest canister I have has been to 55m with no leaks to date and a number of 45m dives. I am very hesitant in opening it as I don't want any further leaks . I don't believe it should be this fragile to use. I have many things with O rings on them and the odd occasion I have had a leak, its always been a faulty O ring or mark on sealing face. On every occasion I have had leaks on the previous container I checked both the seal faces and O rings under a magnifying glass with no apparent issues visible. I might add that this is the Bakelite/plastic style version. I see there is also an aluminium style one (not sure who from) but maybe that might be more reliable? If anyone has these I would like to know how they have gone with them as well.

Golo · Mar 15, 2013

I did some measurements with my canister, and from the measurements of my canister I don't see a problem.

One O-Ring is 62.0mm inner diameter and 1.97mm cross section and with my housing dimensions (62.34mm, 65.81mm) I get a compression of about 11 or 12%, which could be higher, but higher would also mean more danger of damaging the O-Ring at installation.

It looks like the "target" would be 2.0mm cross section, though compression as is should be high enough to not be a problem. And as you always have tolerances in manufacturing, especially when it comes to rubber parts, even if the target is 2.0, you don't always end up with 2.0 but are still within spec.

My other O-Ring varies in thickness between 1.95 at the thinnest point and 2.0 at thickest (with an ID of 61.9mm), though while it shouldn't vary that much, even at 1.95mm compression is over 10% (for my housing), which still should be good enough.

Of course, not knowing what the spec is, I can't tell if mine is inside or outside the spec, and how far from optiumum, but either way my measurements don't indicate a problem to me.

Other than that, if I look at my O-Rings, there is no excess flash at the parting line and I can't see any significant off-set between upper and lower half, so unless the housing deforms under pressure, which I don't think it will for the depths I go to, I personally don't expect my container to leak. I will see for sure when I take it diving, but I'd be surprised if it leaked. Unless I miss some dust or hairs on the seal surface, which would be my fault.

Mine isn't aluminium either, by the way.

Did you grease your O-Rings, and if yes, which type of grease?

Peter69_56 · Mar 15, 2013

Golo:
I did some measurements with my canister, and from the measurements of my canister I don't see a problem.

One O-Ring is 62.0mm inner diameter and 1.97mm cross section and with my housing dimensions (62.34mm, 65.81mm) I get a compression of about 11 or 12%, which could be higher, but higher would also mean more danger of damaging the O-Ring at installation.

It looks like the "target" would be 2.0mm cross section, though compression as is should be high enough to not be a problem. And as you always have tolerances in manufacturing, especially when it comes to rubber parts, even if the target is 2.0, you don't always end up with 2.0 but are still within spec.

My other O-Ring varies in thickness between 1.95 at the thinnest point and 2.0 at thickest (with an ID of 61.9mm), though while it shouldn't vary that much, even at 1.95mm compression is over 10% (for my housing), which still should be good enough.

Of course, not knowing what the spec is, I can't tell if mine is inside or outside the spec, and how far from optiumum, but either way my measurements don't indicate a problem to me.

Other than that, if I look at my O-Rings, there is no excess flash at the parting line and I can't see any significant off-set between upper and lower half, so unless the housing deforms under pressure, which I don't think it will for the depths I go to, I personally don't expect my container to leak. I will see for sure when I take it diving, but I'd be surprised if it leaked. Unless I miss some dust or hairs on the seal surface, which would be my fault.

Mine isn't aluminium either, by the way.

Did you grease your O-Rings, and if yes, which type of grease?

I used silicone grease. I measured the original canister and the sealing surface was 62.5 internal O ring, 62.4 mating surface, 66 outer O ring, 66 mating surface. Clearly there was no interference fit on either O ring. When they said there was nothing wrong with it they said I probably used too much grease. My method of greasing the O rings is to put a light smear on plastic and draw the O ring through it so there is a very thin coating over it.I took it without opening it on return and it immediately leaked, I opened it and then closed it and next dive didn't leak and then leaked every dive after that. Then I measured it and found the measurements above. My replacement has about 1/2 mm interference fit but appears to be leaking on the first O ring. Does anyone have experience on the McMurdo aluminium canisters that are manufactured to a very similar design? I am thinking of using one of them instead as my PLB is too expensive to drown and just replace. I always check for marks on the mating surface by feel and the O ring for hairs sand or any material. These containers just seem very fragile for the purpose at hand. Everything else I have has O rings (6-8 items) and only had one leak ever which was a damaged O ring (other than this canister). I was just starting to get confident with using it again when my mates new canister leaked and killed his PLB so now I am worried again, hence my questions to others. I have a cheap $12 canister with 1 O ring that the lid seats onto and it has never leaked once. Why they insist on sealing on the wall only and not on the seat too astounds me. I suggested that they consider this and was told "we don't design them". I am also considering manufacturing my own from aluminium with 3 O rings, 2 wall and one end seal.

Bhtmec2 · Mar 15, 2013

What I do to give my PLB added security is put it in a food sealer bag and vacume seal it. It is durable as hell and if it does leak you are protected. When you need to use it just rip it out and use it.

Golo · Mar 16, 2013

Peter69_56:
I used silicone grease. I measured the original canister and the sealing surface was 62.5 internal O ring, 62.4 mating surface, 66 outer O ring, 66 mating surface. Clearly there was no interference fit on either O ring. When they said there was nothing wrong with it they said I probably used too much grease. My method of greasing the O rings is to put a light smear on plastic and draw the O ring through it so there is a very thin coating over it.I took it without opening it on return and it immediately leaked, I opened it and then closed it and next dive didn't leak and then leaked every dive after that. Then I measured it and found the measurements above. My replacement has about 1/2 mm interference fit but appears to be leaking on the first O ring. Does anyone have experience on the McMurdo aluminium canisters that are manufactured to a very similar design? I am thinking of using one of them instead as my PLB is too expensive to drown and just replace. I always check for marks on the mating surface by feel and the O ring for hairs sand or any material. These containers just seem very fragile for the purpose at hand. Everything else I have has O rings (6-8 items) and only had one leak ever which was a damaged O ring (other than this canister). I was just starting to get confident with using it again when my mates new canister leaked and killed his PLB so now I am worried again, hence my questions to others. I have a cheap $12 canister with 1 O ring that the lid seats onto and it has never leaked once. Why they insist on sealing on the wall only and not on the seat too astounds me. I suggested that they consider this and was told "we don't design them". I am also considering manufacturing my own from aluminium with 3 O rings, 2 wall and one end seal.

There are difficulties measuring O-Rings, as it is easy to deform them while measuring them, plus the accuracy of tools is also something to consider. Also, usually you measure them when they are not installed.

But either way, if you say there was no interference with your canister and O-Rings (I guess easy to verify, as there should be more resistance closing the housing when they are installed compared to when they are not), then clearly there is something wrong, no matter what the measurements say or how accurate they are. O-Rings only seal when there is interference, and for static applications the squeeze should be more than 8-10% of their cross section.

Now, I can only speak for the canister I have, and that is according to my measurements in the range where I am not worried, but if I'd find out that there would be no interference at all, I would not even try to take it underwater but send it back or get new O-Rings.

Sealing "on the wall" (piston/rod type like this canister) actually does have benefits over a face seal, but can have some drawbacks as well, but I guess no need to go into details. But even if you were to have a face seal, if the O-Ring is out of spec and too thin it would leak just as well.

Depending on how deep you want to dive, how about an Otter box? Or maybe try and find an underwater case for a digitial camera that is big enough to fit your PLB? Might not be that elegant, but they do have face seals, and if it's a clear housing you can actually see that the O-Ring is squeezed all around.

/edit: I was actually wondering about vacuum sealing as well... I wonder if you even need a hard, watertight box around it if you do?

Peter69_56 · Mar 16, 2013

Golo:
There are difficulties measuring O-Rings, as it is easy to deform them while measuring them, plus the accuracy of tools is also something to consider. Also, usually you measure them when they are not installed.

But either way, if you say there was no interference with your canister and O-Rings (I guess easy to verify, as there should be more resistance closing the housing when they are installed compared to when they are not), then clearly there is something wrong, no matter what the measurements say or how accurate they are. O-Rings only seal when there is interference, and for static applications the squeeze should be more than 8-10% of their cross section.

Now, I can only speak for the canister I have, and that is according to my measurements in the range where I am not worried, but if I'd find out that there would be no interference at all, I would not even try to take it underwater but send it back or get new O-Rings.

Sealing "on the wall" (piston/rod type like this canister) actually does have benefits over a face seal, but can have some drawbacks as well, but I guess no need to go into details. But even if you were to have a face seal, if the O-Ring is out of spec and too thin it would leak just as well.

Depending on how deep you want to dive, how about an Otter box? Or maybe try and find an underwater case for a digitial camera that is big enough to fit your PLB? Might not be that elegant, but they do have face seals, and if it's a clear housing you can actually see that the O-Ring is squeezed all around.

/edit: I was actually wondering about vacuum sealing as well... I wonder if you even need a hard, watertight box around it if you do?

When I measured the canister I measured the grooves and sealing faces with a vernier callipers, then measured the O ring which was spec'd to 2mm I too used a food bag to hold my PLB which also saved it from destruction compared to my mate who didn't. Tried vacuum sealing the PLB but it compresses the flotation foam which I was concerned about. Also makes it hard to test and might operate the test button, and if there is a slow leak it will suck the water into the plastic bag. I am actually surprised that all my other devices usually only have one O ring and all seal well with little or no issues down to at least 60m, but this canister has been a problem (and has 2 O rings) and with more than one item so there appears to be an issue of some sort anyway. I have noted that all my other items (strobes, torches seem to have a much tighter fit on the O ring so I might check their tolerance as well) Everything else I have seems robust enough and as long as you keep the seal faces clean and O ring not damaged it always seems to work fine. With this canister it just seems fragile and any little thing seems to cause both O rings to fail in a significant manner. I have seen cameras with a hair on the O ring and all they got in them was a few drops of water when at 30m. With the cylinder it can be a tablespoon full or up to 1/3 full so a significant leak. So I guess my options are; try 2.5 mm O rings (which might damage the canister due to expansion), buy the McMurdo model made from aluminium, make my own from aluminium with 3 O rings one sealing on the face.

Golo · Mar 22, 2013

If your O-Ring is 2mm thick and gets squeezed between 66mm and 62.4mm, the O-Ring gets squeezed by 10%, which should be enough to seal the container. But if you say there is no squeeze, then either the O-Ring is actually thinner than 2mm, or the sealing surfaces are further apart. A reason for leak can also be that the O-Ring is not uniform, like the one I have that has a varying cross section between 2.0mm and 1.95mm.

If your housing is 66mm and 62.4mm and you want to try a thicker O-Ring, you should not go thicker than 2.3mm. Thicker than that would mean you run into the danger of "overfilling" the groove. You might still be safe with 2.4, but there is not enough space for 2.5mm. If you are able to close the housing with an O-Ring that thick, you most likely either damage the O-Ring or the housing, whichever is weaker. After all, rubber itself is incompressible, it might change shape, but not volume.

As I said, I haven't tested my canister yet, so I don't know if it actually stays dry or not. Who knows, maybe mine will fail too, even though it adds up in theory. Once I tested it I'll report back.

UK Custom Diver waterproof canister CDFFC

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