Narcosis

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

jord1990

Contributor
Messages
107
Reaction score
27
Location
Haarlem the netherlands
# of dives
25 - 49
I know there are some circumstances increase the chance of narcosis, but I have a question.

I was doing a day with for me 2 deep dives. It started with a dive to a wreck at around 25 meter. The max dept we reached that dive was 31 meters. Since we got close to the ndl we took an extra long surface interval to get more bottom time on the next dive. After 2.30 hours of hydrating and eating. We planned to go to a small cavern at 26 meters. When we entered the cavern it was amazing, I was swimming around looking with my light all over the place. And after that I just saw everything in third person. My buddy/instructor told me to leave the cavern I signed ok. When I didn't leave my buddy thought I was waiting for her to go first. While instead of getting ready to leave I just kept swimming around looking at the wall (to my defense it was a nice wall). The other divers left and it was just me and a diver that noticed my condition. He put his hand on my head and turned my head towards the exit. Suddenly I had the feeling of waking up. Turns out I had been breathing like a whale in there so I had to cut the dive short.

Questions:

since the dept was this definitely narcosis ?

Does repetitive diving increase your chance of narcosis.

Did the cavern or chamber play any role in this ?

Ps: the feeling was actually great and I enjoyed the dive.

Jord
 
Repetitive diving doesn't affect narcosis. Repetitive diving affects the nitrogen that is dissolved in tissues, but the brain is likely what we term a "fast" tissue, which means it loads nitrogen and unloads it very quickly.

Narcosis is an effect of the nitrogen tension in the blood, so it comes on just about as fast as the nitrogen can be absorbed from the gas in the lungs. But nitrogen is not the only narcotic gas, and my guess is that the secret to your narcosis in the cavern lies in your last sentence. When you are breathing very rapidly and blowing through gas, you are often not actually ventilating the gas exchange portion of the lungs very well at all. Most of the air you are pulling out of your tank doesn't get deep enough into your chest to participate in gas transport. It just ventilates the trachea and large bronchi, which have no gas exchange function. So, although it seems counterintuitive, rapid breathing can result in HIGHER carbon dioxide levels in the blood, and CO2 is even more narcotic than nitrogen is.

So you are relatively deep, in the dark, and huffing like a steam engine -- this is a setup for what we in the Pacific Northwest call a "dark narc", which is a combination nitrogen and CO2 effect, and is usually quite unpleasant.
 
Another name for Narcosis is "Raptures of the deep" - it can affect you this way. I have a friend who is a bit susceptible to narcosis - he hums to himself and sings into his regulator. I think it can either make you paranoid and nervous or relaxed and couldn't care less.

On all deep dives you will be affected by narcosis to a certain extent, it maybe just a slowing of your reactions and thoughts, or possibly other more dangerous manifestations but one thing about narcosis is that it isn't very predictable, also a dive to a certain depth might not affect you one day and the same dive might another time. Repetitive diving doesn't 'accumulate' more risk of narcosis as I think the trigger is the partial pressure of nitrogen in the gas you are BREATHING, which is why ascending a few metres usually leads to a rapid lessening of the symptoms. - Phil
 
It seems as if it could be a combination of nitrogen narcosis and CO2. Temperature and light also seem to affect narcosis, though perhaps only in the way you perceived it.
 
So you are relatively deep, in the dark, and huffing like a steam engine -- this is a setup for what we in the Pacific Northwest call a "dark narc", which is a combination nitrogen and CO2 effect, and is usually quite unpleasant.

It was actually one of the best feelings I've ever had (what I think is worse cause I didn't spot any problem) Whenever I think back of it I get a great feeling, but can't help to feel a little ashamed. I know it's physiological but in diving I'm pushing myself to be a perfectionist. And I still can't get my head totally wrapped around what happened.
I know the theory, but I just swam in circles for 2 min without a real recollection of it.

Jord
 
As you just learned it is easy to lose track of time. Fortunately you had buddies who brought you back to your senses. I have a little mantra which I repeat to myself as I go down. "check the gauges, check the gauges," If I make a point of it then I do it. But if you let yourself get wrapped up in something else like taking a photo, or digging for fossils, without a conscious effort it is easy to get into deco or gas problems. Personally I find a need to focus a bit more once I reach about 80 ft and definitely at 100.
 
It was actually one of the best feelings I've ever had (what I think is worse cause I didn't spot any problem) Whenever I think back of it I get a great feeling, but can't help to feel a little ashamed. I know it's physiological but in diving I'm pushing myself to be a perfectionist. And I still can't get my head totally wrapped around what happened.
I know the theory, but I just swam in circles for 2 min without a real recollection of it.

Jord


All I can say is I kind of wish I could get that narced at 85' - sounds fun and what you've described is loopier than I've ever been on 200'+ air dives. Then again, a tolerance to alcohol and many anesthetics seems to run in my family, so I may just not have the genes for it.

Anyway, now that you've found you're suceptable to potentially wandering off, breathing down your tank and/or incurring a deco obligation before you realize what happened, it's a good time to think about (1) finding a good buddy for deeper dives and agreeing ahead of time to try to monitor eachother, and (2) work on recognizing, evaluating, and compensating for your narcosis symptoms so you don't suddenly wake up one day with 200psi in the tank and 20 minutes of deco on your computer.

I've been diving a site recently that has two plateaus at 60' and 100', with a very steep slope after the last plateau dropping to 210' pretty fast. It's been interesting how much more aware of the symptoms of narcosis I've found myself while working my way down the slopes after each plateau, than if I'm just dropping straight down to the same depth. Having stuff to look at and explore, and focusing on how my reactions to it change as I move down the slope, seems to offer more mental purchase than simply descending through the water column.
 
A passage from a book I am working on... The OP may find it useful. Who knows

GAS TOXICITY: The strange transformation of gases at depth
A diver does not have to venture very deep in the water column before breathing compressed gas opens him up to the potential of gas toxicity. This toxicity can take several forms: hyperoxia, hypoxia (and anoxia), hypercapnia, narcosis, and in special cases, carbon monoxide poisoning. Even the air we breathe comfortably every day of our lives on dry land, goes through a Jekyll and Hyde transformation underwater.

INERT GAS NARCOSIS
For example, even in relatively shallow water – certainly no deeper than newly certified sport-divers are advised to dive – one of the side-effects from breathing compressed air is nitrogen narcosis. The effects of narcosis can begin to impair a diver’s ability to “think fast and straight” within a few metres of the surface. Breathing normal compressed air at more extreme depths – and how deep that is depends on many factors besides the lineal distance to the surface – reaction times can slow dramatically, rational decision-making may be impaired, situational awareness can disappear. This behavior, while fine and even amusing in a clown at a kid’s birthday party, can have devastating consequences underwater. Extreme reactions to nitrogen narcosis – sometimes tagged as inert gas narcosis – have been shown to turn a usually cautious and meticulous diver into someone who was a danger to himself and everyone diving with him.

However, that said, this type of severe reaction to the effects of narcosis are not guaranteed. They simply do not visit every diver who dives deep. Or, more accurately, they do not visit all divers to the same extent. Every diver suffers some impairment, but individual divers react differently to that impairment. Also, for some, its effects increase gently and for others they arrive in a fire truck with the sirens blaring. Some report its effects as deep as 60 metres (200 feet) on air as “mild” while others would be comatose at that depth on that gas.

So, rather than generalise about its effect, we’d do better to understand that narcosis is not a monster that hangs around at a specific depth waiting to attack us. There is no red line at X-metres or Y-feet beyond which lay dragons and demons. The four horsemen of the apocalypse will not ride us down if we breathe air below some magical depth. Narcosis is not so easily pigeonholed.
Now that’s not to say that one day, Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death will not suddenly appear out of the gloom approaching at a full gallop. That may indeed be in your stars if you dive deep on air or any other gas. It’s just that nobody can tell you the depth at which these visions will occur or indeed, if your reaction to extreme narcosis will instead cause you to chill out, see paisley fish, and start humming Grateful Dead tunes to yourself.

To complicate the issue even more, while I am unaware of any hard-edged physiological studies that are able to explain why the face narcosis presents to a diver can be benign one day, and cruel the next, this certainly is the case. I have witnessed a diver who was perfectly comfortable working with a specific narcotic loading one day, act like a character from Monty Python’s Flying Circus at the same depth and narcotic load a few days later.

This incident and others like it, lend credence to the suggestion that there is far more at work than a simple lineal relationship between nitrogen partial pressure and the effects of narcosis.

OTHER FACTORS
Among the factors that are thought to contribute to the rapidity of onset, and the severity of narcosis include:

  • Increased partial pressures of CO2 (the result of hard work, swimming against a current, working with camera equipment, skip-breathing, etc.)
  • Thermal Stress (being cold at depth)
  • Being drunk or diving with a hangover or diving under the influence of “recreational” drugs
  • Diving tired or after a poor night’s sleep (which is a type of fatigue many poor sailors suffer on live-aboard vacations)
  • High WOB (work of breathing) related to the breathing resistance within the system being used (both open-circuit, semi-closed circuit and closed-circuit)
  • Anxiety or apprehension: including fear of nitrogen narcosis
  • Side-effects from various prescription and over-the-counter medications (motion sickness meds for example)
  • Rapid descent (especially when coupled with the following&#8230:wink:
  • Vertigo or temporary disorientation caused by the diver having no ‘up’ reference such as in clear ‘blue water’ or in water with very poor visibility
  • Task-loading stress (unfamiliarity with equipment, buddy, environment et al.)
  • Temporal stress (feeling rushed and under pressure to accomplish a task for example)
  • Diving with a cold or flu
  • Increased oxygen partial pressure (see below)
ADAPTION
Adaptation to narcosis is a rather controversial sub-topic. Some experienced divers suggest that with practice and experience, and with the help of some simple breathing and preparatory techniques, the effects of narcosis can be controlled. The degree of control is specific to individuals, and tolerances to narcosis can vary from day to day: but many experienced deep divers will tell you that “adaptation” to narcosis does take place.

In his book on diving medicine, Peter Bennett, founder of DAN (Diver’s Alert Network) and currently the Senior Director of the Center for Hyperbaric Medicine and Environmental Physiology at Duke University Medical Centre, wrote: “the novice diver may expect to be relatively seriously affected by nitrogen narcosis, but subjectively at least there will be improvement with experience. Frequency of exposure [to narcosis] does seem to result in some level of adaptation.”

The actual mechanics of adaptation are neither completely understood nor proven but there is a consensus among a segment of experienced deep divers who agree that the effects of narcosis seem to lessen with repeated, progressively deeper exposures.
Bret Gilliam, while writing on the topic in an article for Diver Magazine, stated:

“For the diver who regularly faces deep exposures, a tolerance far in excess of the unadapted diver will be exhibited. A gradual work-up to increasing depths is the best recommendation. I refer to making each first dive of the day progressively deeper than the day before to build tolerances, i.e. Day one: first dive to 150 feet, Day two: first dive to 175 feet etc. Subsequent dives on Day one and Day two would be shallower than the first. This process should be over several days’ time if the diver has been away from deep diving for more than two weeks. Adaptation appears to be lost exponentially as acquired so no immediate increased narcosis susceptibility will necessarily be evident but divers are cautioned to exercise great conservatism if any lay-off is necessitated.”

Gilliam, a pioneering technical diver whose 40-year career in the sport includes founding Technical Diving International and registering a world-record deep dive on air to 145 metres (475 feet) in 1993, is surprisingly circumspect about deep-air diving.
“I would like to emphasize that deep air diving below 218 feet [slightly deeper than 66 metres] is generally not recommended given the alternatives available in today’s industry. This depth represents the outer limits of recommended oxygen exposures at 1.6 ATA of oxygen. For high risk or particularly demanding dives this depth should be adjusted shallower. Many veteran air divers now opt for mixed gas that virtually eliminates narcosis and oxygen toxicity problems.”

SYMPTOMS
However well one may tolerate narcosis, and in spite of conditioning and experience, eventually, it influences the performance of all divers. It should be added that even when breathing gases containing copious amounts of helium as a strategy to reduce narcosis, some level of impairment must always be assumed when diving. The classic textbook symptoms of narcosis are light-headedness, slowed reflexes, euphoria, reduction of peripheral vision, localized numbness or tingling, and difficulty making decisions (euphemistically called cotton-wool head).

Individuals who recognise that all dives are conducted under some narcotic loading – and who have prepared themselves to dive deep – constantly monitor themselves for more subtle signs that signal things are beginning to slide. These early symptoms often start with difficulty reading gauges, especially the finer graduations on depth and pressure gauges. Sounds begin to distort and become somewhat louder. Time seems to pass more slowly… or more quickly. Perceptual narrowing adds a degree of added complexity to the operation of basic equipment such as clips, buttons and switches.

An experienced diver can learn to control these deficiencies and work within them, but these shifts in perception can present real danger and cannot be underestimated. No assumptions can be made that what was fine at depth “Y” yesterday will be acceptable at the same depth today. Getting chilled during pre-dive preparations, feeling the effects of a poor night’s sleep etc. can result in dangerous oversight. Self-monitoring and stress-assessment are critical skills before and during a dive. A diver at 60 metres with a poor perception of time and depth, as well as confusion about the location of a safe exit and remaining gas volume, has a diminished chance of survival.

What follows is a list of symptoms. Your mileage may vary but learning these and being on the lookout for them, may help you avoid a brush with the four horsemen.

  • Light-headedness
  • Euphoria
  • Impaired neuromuscular coordination
  • Hearing sensitivity or hallucination
  • Slowed mental activity
  • Decreased problem solving capacity
  • Overconfidence
  • Short-term memory loss
  • Improper time perceptions
  • Inability to focus on fine work
  • Exaggerated movements
  • Numbness and tingling in lips, face and feet
  • Stupor and a sense of carelessness
  • Sense of impending blackout
  • Levity or tendency to laughter
  • Depressive state
  • Visual hallucination or disturbances
  • Perceptual narrowing
  • Less tolerance to stress
  • Exaggerated (oversized) handwriting
  • Amnesia
  • Loss of consciousness
  • Retardation of higher mental processes
  • Retardation of task performances
  • Slurred speech
  • Poor judgment
  • Slowed reaction time and reflex ability
  • Loss of mechanical dexterity


YET ANOTHER INFLUENCE ON NARCOSIS… PERHAPS
In addition to the effects and influences of an elevated nitrogen partial pressure, cold, workload, stress et al., on a diver’s perceptions and performance at depth, there is the issue/controversy surrounding oxygen narcosis: or more correctly, the debate over whether oxygen is or is not also narcotic.

This particular question seems no closer to being resolved as I write this than it was a couple of decades ago when some fledgling technical diver first posed the question.

David Sawatzky is a very experienced technical diver, a member of the advisory board for a major training agency, and a medical doctor whose resume includes spells doing research into diving physiology for the Canadian military. In the late 1990s, he published an article on the topic of oxygen narcosis in which he stated: “The scientific data available do NOT support the conclusion that oxygen is narcotic. They also do not and cannot show that oxygen has no narcotic effect. Oxygen might somehow be involved in the entire question of narcosis and [diver] performance but it is clearly not more narcotic than nitrogen. The narcotic gases are all chemically inert in the body. In contrast, oxygen is one of the most chemically active substances in nature.”

After reading Dr. Sawatzky’s article, and after private conversations with him and other medical doctors who’ve research the subject, plus interviews with many professional and non-professional divers, and 20 years’ experience conducting dives using nitrox, pure oxygen, trimix, heliox and a couple of more exotic gases myself, what I hear is this. If you are looking for scientific evidence about oxygen narcosis and how it may or may not add to the effects of nitrogen narcosis, you are going to be hard-pressed. It seems difficult to measure the influence of oxygen with any quantitative accuracy at this date. This may change but as it stands, since a change cannot be measured, in practical terms, oxygen narcosis either is not there or is too small to matter.

Frankly, as interesting as the debate over oxygen narcosis may be, I believe deep divers have other oxygen toxicity concerns on which to focus.
 
Last edited:
I've done dives deeper then that one and yeah especially last week on 34 meters, I could just feel myself slow down. Which giving current conditions is great. But I would never expect it so severe.
 
Last edited:
Questions:

since the dept was this definitely narcosis ?

Does repetitive diving increase your chance of narcosis.

Did the cavern or chamber play any role in this ?

Ps: the feeling was actually great and I enjoyed the dive.

Jord

Yes.

Kind of, if you keep diving you will get narked again.

Could be.
I was diving Tahoe solo and the beautiful deep blue was calling, I had myself in the third person call the dive at 130' and head back up. One of the nicest dives I've had, but if I was a new diver this would be in A&E.

Ps: Yes, the feeling can be great, but if someone had not pulled you out an empty tank would have.


Read Doppler's response as it has quite a bit of good info in a small package.

If very careful you can enjoy the song, but you can not trust the Sirens.



Bob
-------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom