Diver liabilities
- Thread starter cldSCUBA
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BIGcldSCUBA:
It's not just not being on paper but even if a full team member is not trained for the operation at hand. Any department that does that has money to burn in a law suit.
Gary D.:shakehead
The liability would be HUGE and I would suggest if you are going to provide a service, that you be included as a member of the agency. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your survivors so they can claim death benefits!
You should really be a member for other reasons too...
Good luck!
You should really be a member for other reasons too...
- Workers compensation, should you get exposed to a biohazard recovering a victim or a chemicals pulling vehicles from polluted waters. Also, consider the potential for hyperbaric injuries and ear infections. Should you need medical attention, your personal insurance may not cover you if you have been doing work for "an employer."
- Training, specific to public safety diving which is typically offered only to members of a recognized agency.
- Discounted dive gear which is available through Aqua Lung dealers (and I suspect other manufacturers) when you show proof of dive team affiliation and provide an affidavit that the equipment being purchased will be used in your capacity as a public safety diver.
- Protection from personal liability should you make an error on a dive, or while responding to the dive location in your personal vehicle.
- Death benefits, as previously mentioned.
Good luck!
DivePartner1
Contributor
cldSCUBA:
I don't know what legal credentials Blades has, but consider legal advise from strangers over boards for what it is worth. I take it about as seriously as I would take anonymous medical or tax advise from strangers unless I know the poster.
As a practical matter, from your bio you appear to be a fully qualified rescue professional. From you post, you seem to be considering volunteer service on your spare time. To do this, you should contact the leadership of the volunteer program and/or their legal counsel to determine what kind of legal protections your state provides to volunteers, or what kind of indemnities they might provide.
As you know from your training, many states provide good samaritan protection. These generally protect volunteers offering assistance in good faith during emergencies, but these laws vary from state to state. The bad news is that in a view of the more lawyer-driven states pros can lose the benefit of these laws in some cases even when they are off the clock. I've done a survey of some of these laws and would be glad to share what I've found about your state. PM me if you are interested.
Don't give up. We all need more people like you. Just find a way to do it right.
Blades is one of the owners of DRI. They handle a large percentage of PSD training.DivePartner1:
On a body recovery, which was in the original post, the Good Sam laws are not going to apply. This is not an emergency, it's a recovery. Getting the wrong people involved can cause a lot of liability problems. Time with a recovery is not an issue as it is with rescue. I don't know of anyplace the good Sam laws would apply once the rescue mode has ended.
As far as cldSCUBA's profile I don't see where he is a certified PSD. Firefighter yes but that does not mean he is trained in PSD. All I saw was OW, which is fine but the training needs to be expanded from there.
Gary D.
So Gary, do all volunteer divers fall under this same situation? I am a rescue diver (Not allot of experience yet but that’s why you train.) with all my experience being here were I would be diving. I am not a PSD certified though... I am pretty sure none of the divers here for the past 10 years and before have been PSD certified. Does this mean that all these years they have been doing things wrong? Just looking for some answers so I have something to go to them with, or just not do it. Thank you guys for your responses.
vablackwater
Contributor
Most teams (in my limited radius) recognize the distinction between a PSD versus a rescue diver, and a lot of agencies are gravitatiing to what the min stanards are for a PSD (NFPA/ OSHA). TDI/ ERDI has some good explanations as to what the distinctions are:
http://www.tdisdi.com/erdi/qa.html
http://www.tdisdi.com/erdi/qa.html
cldSCUBA:
To answer your question quite simpily - yes.
A diving op is probably the most complex op a fire dept can do - it has elements of hazmat, confined space, high angle, EMS, crime scene and fire operations all into one (maybe even VE too!). Unfortunately these guys probably don't know what they don't know and thats not safe - particularly for you and your team.
A recreational rescue diver is about as far from a fully certified PSD as an open water diver is from being a trimix diver. Its about that much work and training IMO.
If you really want your answers you need to check with the PSD training agencies as blackwater suggests. Here's a couple more:
http://www.teamlgs.com/
http://www.diverescueintl.com/
DivePartner1:
Those are wise words of wisdom and I fully agree with DivePartner1. For good legal advise, you should always consult a good attorney.
I will atest though that I based my earlier opinon on past legal precedent and the local Rescue Squad should not want to "employ" or engage the services of recreationaly trained SCUBA divers to conduct public safety diving on their behalf. There are several case laws where public entities have been sued for "hiring" the services of improperly trained divers. Some history can be found at the following hyperlink (The Roza Irrigation Canal tragedy) ...
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wa&vol=2002_sc/71618-8&invol=3
The Roza Canal District was sucessfully sued multiple times by multiple families because of one incident that claimed the lives of four divers, two of which were "rescue divers" trying to save the lives of two divers who were recreationally trained but working in a commercial capacity. There is a lot of information online and you only have to search "Roza Canal diver" to return 19,900 hits on Google.
There are other suits including pending litigation in Indianapolis where we are holding the IADRS Conference this week. Do a Google search for "indianapolis fire department diver" and you will get some history there too.
If the Rescue Squad wants you to provide services for them, they should willingly add your name to their rosters so you enjoy all of the benefits afforded to every other squad member.
One other scenario to add to my earlier list for your consideration:
Should you be called out and your equipment is damaged or contaminated to the point where it can no longer be used, who is going to replace it? In Sunrise, FL fire department divers were sent to assist a construction worker who was partially trapped by a rock in trench that was filling with rising water. While using a hydraulic extrication tool, one of the hoses burst spraying the divers with hydraulic fluid and contaminating the water. The BCs (I believe there were six total) had to be removed from service, permanently, because they could not properly be decontaminated.
If that were to happen in your area, possibly with a car in a canal, who would replace your BC?
Friend, I am not responding to your request for information at 0204 hours, the night before the IADRS Conference so I can look like some "big shot" on this forum. I am simply trying to protect you, your family, the local rescue squad and your community from HUGE liability should something go wrong. I am going to make an assumption that the rescue squad in Moncks Corner, SC doesn't have a lot of money and they don't want to be sued by your family should you get injured or worse. They should do the right thing and add your name to their roster and provide you with proper training and workers comp while you are volunteering in the capacity of a rescue diver.
This is my opinion only, for what it worth. And again, as DivePartner pointed out, it's free so you can draw your own conclusions.
Now, one other item, because it has been brought up... (and again, for YOUR consideration).
There have been 55 documented public safety diving fatalities but none in the past 12 months. The Grim Reaper is out there and waiting for the next diver to make a mistake. I am hopeful he doesn't get you or any of these forum members, but with certainty, he is going to get someone, and more than likley it will be very soon. BE VERY CAREFUL! Get good training and good experience before you assume the role of a public safety diver.
Best regards and safe diving!
Blades Robinson, Director
Dive Rescue International
www.DiveRescueIntl.com
I dont think there is a difference between full-time or volunteer teams when it comes to liability. We are all volunteers for the PSD teams and normally its a sideline to our regular job. A LEO or Fireman doesnt dive as their normal profession; its a sideline. They may or may not join the PSD team; the choice is theirs as it is rarely a condition of employment. I think a better description would be paid or non-paid team. I just so happen to be on a paid team.cldSCUBA:
I think the certification for Rescue is wrong. Not the training but terminology. We have people approach us all the time with Rescue Certifications, saying they want to join our team or help out in a pinch because they are Rescue Trained. Well, their training was lacking something when they got that Rescue Card. Their instructor didnt get the point across that they are not Emergency Services Rescue Divers.
Sport Rescue Diver is a diver that has had additional training on taking care of themselves and/or others in the water until additional help arrives or to get you to a location of safety to take care of a problem. It in no way prepares one for the riggers of Public Safety Diving.
Trying to do PSD work with a Rescue Certification is like trying to fly a multi engine commuter airplane with a single engine sport rating. You just might get away with it for a while but someday it just may take a big chunk out of your posterior.
Rescue Certifications dont prepare a diver for visibility that can be best described as not zero but the total lack of light. When you cant tell the difference between your eyes being open or closed or all you can see from a mega buck high power light is a faint glow when its stuck to your mask, thats dark and the type of zero visibility we are talking about.
Add to the zero visibility every kind of hazard you can imagine, huge saw blade from old saw mills, cable, rope, fishing line, hooks, logs like a pile of pick up sticks, pipe, broken glass, sharp metal, decayed organic matter, sewage, chemicals, hot electrical wires, stray electricity and I could go on and on about the plethora of hazards. Rescue does not prepare a diver for these conditions like PSD training does.
I havent seen a body yet that didnt deposit a bit of them selves on me on the way up. Even during the bagging process pieces may, and often do, sluf off and internal fluids like to escape into the water column. Guess who is in that water column with that DNA? You are and guess where that stuff is going to end up? On you, so you need to know how to protect yourself from a large number of diseases that may be ready to take up a new residence.
The training is available out there and it is not that expensive. If you dont take advantage of it liability issues may arise that you may have no defense against. You and your sponsoring department could be paying out big time for a long time.
See how fast a LEO would get buried if he/she shot someone and they werent qualified to carry a weapon. Or see how fast the drunk gets off and walks if something as simple as your Intox Certification being expired. Firemen also have various areas they have to stay current in. If they expire in an area the legal eagles could have a ball with them as well.
Today everyone is suit happy. If you are a TRAINED professional acting within your departments guidelines and policy you may still get into a legal hassle because people will file a suit for just about anything. Your best defense is to have the proper training and be within your policy. Being without those things it could get ugly.
Also a PSD certification, unlike your Rescue certification, has to be renewed. Its not a one-time training succession and thats it, you need to keep training. Put a little pressure on your department for the proper training.
Gary D.Similar threads
