Would you dive with someone who wouldn't share air if you were OOA?

[Kingpatzer]

I suspect that the biggest problem in this discussion is that Papa_Bear doesn't strike me as the best author in the world. His writing is terse, overly filled with "!'s" and not particularly nuanced.

Now, we can assume that he's a total jerk who would sit and watch his buddy drown with a smile on his face, or we can assume he's not a sociopath, and that he's just not particularly adept at expressing himself.

My take on what he is saying is not that he won't share air. My take on what he is saying is that he will not put himself at risk to share air. He is contending, I believe, something that is taught in PADi rescue and DM courses -- that recovering one body is better than recovery two, so never put yourself at risk during a rescue. If you have an emergency, the first goal of the rescuer (which would include the buddy) is to ensure the situation of the rescuer. After that one may effect a rescue.

Now, some of what he has said is just flat out wrong. All agencies that I am aware of, PADI, NAUI and NOAA teach divers (some better than others) to manage their air so that a diver can get himself and a buddy to safety should something go wrong. And no one teaches that you should pull a drowning person under water to stop them from struggling.

However, if I'm reading him correctly, and I admit there is definitely room to question if I am or not, what claim he is making is part of basic rescue training: don't endanger yourself to effect a rescue.

 

[Blackwood]

My take on what he is saying is not that he won't share air. My take on what he is saying is that he will not put himself at risk to share air. He is contending, I believe, something that is taught in PADi rescue and DM courses -- that recovering one body is better than recovery two, so never put yourself at risk during a rescue.

I believe that's part of what he is saying. However, many of his posts imply that any sharing of gas is inherently dangerous.

In the first deleted thread, he called Mike F. dangerous for suggesting that divers should carry enough gas to surface two.

 

[oly5050user]

Never needed to get any air from anyone ever in 40 years of diving after thousands of dives.
Would I dive with this person who would not share?
Answer is NO.
If they are that self centered why would you want to be around them anyway?

 

[Kingpatzer]

I believe that's part of what he is saying. However, many of his posts imply that any sharing of gas is inherently dangerous.

In the first deleted thread, he called Mike F. dangerous for suggesting that divers should carry enough gas to surface two.

I read that, and I'm hoping he was getting caught up in the debate and was being hperbolic and dramatic for effect rather than actually advocating watching a non-paniced person drown.

My take is that when I (and I think most divers) here say "OOA diver" we are envisioning a person who has looked down, seen their gauge is low, noticed that it is next to impossible to draw on the reg, and have turned to their buddy, signalled out of air, and are waiting impatiently for the octo.

When Papa_Bear says "OOA Diver" I get the impression he is picturing someone clawing at him in desperation, already in the throws of drowning, who is presenting themselves as a danger to be near, and who is past a level of coherence where sharing air is a reasonable possibility.

Now, if that is what is happening, then people are just talking past each other, because we're not talking about the same thing.

If we are all talking about the same thing -- the calm diver who is trying to get aide from a buddy, then PB is, frankly, completely beyond the bend if he would deny help in that instance and instead prefer to do a body recovery. But I think real sociopaths are rare, so I choose to look for a different explanation for what I'm reading.

 

[Blackwood]

When Papa_Bear says "OOA Diver" I get the impression he is picturing someone clawing at him in desperation, already in the throws of drowning, who is presenting themselves as a danger to be near, and who is past a level of coherence where sharing air is a reasonable possibility.

I imagine you are right.

And in a situation like that, I agree with him.

However,

I read that, and I'm hoping he was getting caught up in the debate and was being hperbolic and dramatic for effect rather than actually advocating watching a non-paniced person drown.

If memory serves, that was one of the first things he said (read: before the [-]argument started[/-] thread deteriorated into a pile of crap), so I'm not sure he was.

He contradicted himself many times, and it's impossible to sort out his position. Frankly, I don't have the time, so I'll just take him at face value.

 

[Web Monkey]

My take is that when I (and I think most divers) here say "OOA diver" we are envisioning a person who has looked down, seen their gauge is low, noticed that it is next to impossible to draw on the reg, and have turned to their buddy, signalled out of air, and are waiting impatiently for the octo.

When Papa_Bear says "OOA Diver" I get the impression he is picturing someone clawing at him in desperation, already in the throws of drowning, who is presenting themselves as a danger to be near, and who is past a level of coherence where sharing air is a reasonable possibility.

There's probably less (probably much less) than 15 seconds between the first one and the second one, and it's the same person.

There isn't a human on the planet who will take "No" for an answer if they're drowning and there's someone nearby with air.

Terry

 

[jimdiverman]

Now, some of what he has said is just flat out wrong. All agencies that I am aware of, PADI, NAUI and NOAA teach divers (some better than others) to manage their air so that a diver can get himself and a buddy to safety should something go wrong. And no one teaches that you should pull a drowning person under water to stop them from struggling.

If I remember well what my Rescue Instructor taught me, it was that if someone should be frantic or out of control and you fear for your life, and you cannot control your buoyancy with the victim trying to get on top of you at the surface, (lots of ands there), THEN you should let some air out of your BC, and the theory is that the victim will then let go and not want to go under the water. Of course this also means that you are still in control of your reg. I think it would have to be really bad to use that technique, but I think that is the way I remember it being taught.

 

[scarefaceDM]

Sharing air in a conventional manner is dangerous with an out right paniced diver. Hense why I dive with a longer hose. This way I can avoid a possible major panic on an acent line or at the surface as stated above. Always remaining in control of my secondard and donating my primary as to avoid the paniced diver from ripping my reg out. I can push off and regain control.

Control is the primary concern as well as my own saftey. Secondary is donating my working air source to get control again of an emergency.

just my 5 cents worth...CDN dollar is hanging in there..

 

[wedivebc]

I have not read all the posts yet so forgive me if this has been mentioned. I think there is an unwritten contract or understanding when conducting dives with a buddy that you are expecting to save some air for the buddy's use in an emergency and you have no right to violate that contract.
One exception if you make it clear to the person you are sharing the same proximity of ocean with that you are NOT his buddy and should not be expected to share. By default though it should be expected you will share gas and therefore you have an obligation to leave some back for the buddy.
How much and how you manage that should be part of your pre-dive brief.

 

[Kingpatzer]

There's probably less (probably much less) than 15 seconds between the first one and the second one, and it's the same person.

There isn't a human on the planet who will take "No" for an answer if they're drowning and there's someone nearby with air.

Terry

Correct on both counts, though I'd point out that you can do a heck of a lot in 15 seconds if you keep your head about you. Which, I realize, is not something that most divers will do in that situation.