My pet peeve with dive instruction

[tfsails]

PADI's pretty good at self-promotion. Every time I read their magazine, I notice that just about every page has the acronym "PADI" written somewhere on it. What's it that PADI stands for??? I forgot...

 

[Nick_W]

No? Why does the SSI OW manual still say that air has a different mass when contained in an AL cylinder than it does in steel? This misinformation has been in print for over 5 years.

Why does PADI still use 60fpm as max ascent rate? I'm pretty sure it's not because it is better than 30fpm for divers.

I don't know, why don't you call them and ask instead of complaining about it on an random internet message board.

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that they have changed their way of teaching things over the years when presented with solid evidence showing they should change.

I care. I'm more considerate of others than to dive overweighted so that I kick up silt the entire dive and ruin it for anyone that comes after me. Being overweighted is one of the biggest issues with training today. The knife is a pet peeve, but I can at least understand why some divers carry larger ones....I don't agree with that line of thought, but as long as it's thought out, I'm not going to say either is right or wrong, it's a compromise IMO.

Overweighted is the biggest issue? Wow, I can think of a lot bigger issues than that. While I'm not a fan of overweighting students and try to impress upon them the need to properly weight themselves, I've seen plenty of divers who are overweighted who have managed to stay off the bottom. Of course I've also seen divers with all of their pretty necklaces and 7' hoses spend about 45 minutes crawling all over the bottom. In fact, I saw two of them doing just that while I was trying to teach a class today.

Personally, I try not to judge a diver on petty little things like the size of his knife, where he puts his octo, or if he has five extra pounds of weight. I usually try to judge them on, oh I don't know, their diving.

 

[ucfdiver]

Personally, I try not to judge a diver on petty little things like the size of his knife, where he puts his octo, or if he has five extra pounds of weight. I usually try to judge them on, oh I don't know, their diving.

If I encounter a new diver, I never tell them where to put everything, I just tell them to put it in a location that if I ask why it's there, they can give me a good answer.

There's no way to tell a diver is overweighted unless they're showing signs of it, in which case you'd be judging them by their diving. A large part of diving is the premeditation of what to do during an emergency, so if a diver has their backup in a location they can't access it, or a knife where they can't get to it, I consider that failure to plan. Doesn't make anyone a horrible diver, but it does make it someone that could benefit from some guidance.

If it weren't for me being told about lots of these things, I wouldn't know either. Fortunately other divers were kind enough to correct me, and I hope I never reach a point to where I'm not analyzing other's gear setups and thinking about how I can improve or adapt my technique based off of that. Diving is a great social activity, I'm always surprised how much I continue to learn from other divers, and I would be a leech on the community if I didn't share that knowledge with others.

 

[Nick_W]

If I encounter a new diver, I never tell them where to put everything, I just tell them to put it in a location that if I ask why it's there, they can give me a good answer.

Then why are you posting in the "new divers" forum that an octo should be put on a necklace? That sure sounds like telling new divers where to put stuff.

There's no way to tell a diver is overweighted unless they're showing signs of it, in which case you'd be judging them by their diving.

Well, since I'm an instructor, and I'm usually the one putting the weight on people, there are ways to tell if someone is overweighted other than just putting some weight on them, tossing them in, and then seeing if they sink to the bottom like a rock.

A large part of diving is the premeditation of what to do during an emergency, so if a diver has their backup in a location they can't access it, or a knife where they can't get to it, I consider that failure to plan. Doesn't make anyone a horrible diver, but it does make it someone that could benefit from some guidance.

Where did anyone say anything about putting the backup in a location where they can't access it? In fact, I think I specifically said that it should be accessable. And by the way, even trailing behind them, while I would never actually recommend it, is still accessable.

If it weren't for me being told about lots of these things, I wouldn't know either. Fortunately other divers were kind enough to correct me, and I hope I never reach a point to where I'm not analyzing other's gear setups and thinking about how I can improve or adapt my technique based off of that. Diving is a great social activity, I'm always surprised how much I continue to learn from other divers, and I would be a leech on the community if I didn't share that knowledge with others.

Sorry, if I'm at a dive site and a 20-year-old walks up to me and starts telling me where I should put my octo, I'm probably going to tell him where I'm about to shove my foot. So just be careful how you go about sharing your wealth of knowlege.

 

[ucfdiver]

Then why are you posting in the "new divers" forum that an octo should be put on a necklace? That sure sounds like telling new divers where to put stuff.

Well, since I'm an instructor, and I'm usually the one putting the weight on people, there are ways to tell if someone is overweighted other than just putting some weight on them, tossing them in, and then seeing if they sink to the bottom like a rock.

Where did anyone say anything about putting the backup in a location where they can't access it? In fact, I think I specifically said that it should be accessable. And by the way, even trailing behind them, while I would never actually recommend it, is still accessable.

Sorry, if I'm at a dive site and a 20-year-old walks up to me and starts telling me where I should put my octo, I'm probably going to tell him where I'm about to shove my foot. So just be careful how you go about sharing your wealth of knowlege.

I've yet to hear a situation where the backup not being on a necklace isn't the safest way. If someone brings one up, I'll gladly consider it and change my diving style.

Sure there's ways to tell if they're overweighted, but if it's obvious, an instructor should correct it.

I'm not walking around policing the diving community. If I'm in conversation at a picnic table with another diver, it's common to discuss gear configurations. I'd take advice from a 10 year old just out of JR scuba class if they had a better idea than what I've been taught. The point of this post, was dive instructors are pumping divers out with these poor skills. If you can justify why a piece of gear is where it's at, fine, but if it's just there for no reason, you need to think about it some more IMO.

 

[Nick_W]

I've yet to hear a situation where the backup not being on a necklace isn't the safest way. If someone brings one up, I'll gladly consider it and change my diving style.

There's no need to change what you do, I would never suggest it. If wearing the backup on a necklace is comfortable for you, doesn't get in the way of any other gear, and your buddies are aware of how you handle an OOA situation, then go for it.

But the necklace is no safer than having your backup anywhere else where it is visible and accessable. All that matters is that you know where it is, can get to it quickly and easily and your buddy knows what you're going to do.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Why does PADI still use 60fpm as max ascent rate? I'm pretty sure it's not because it is better than 30fpm for divers.

Because that would be admitting that the other agencies and manufacturers know more than they do.

 

[Papa_Bear]

No? Why does the SSI OW manual still say that air has a different mass when contained in an AL cylinder than it does in steel? This misinformation has been in print for over 5 years.

Why does PADI still use 60fpm as max ascent rate? I'm pretty sure it's not because it is better than 30fpm for divers.

The first statement maybe in relation to most Al being HP 3000psi and steel being LP 2450psi or there abouts! Just a thought on the context of the statement.....

60fpm was what I was taught and it is still the MAX where 30fpm is "The Goal" the "Better Ascent Rate" or the "Standard"? But I read that as 60fpm is the Max Safe Rate! I was taught "Never ascend faster than 60fpm no matter what"!One doesn't exclude the other so I can see why they have left it..... I would ask "What do the instructors teach"?

 

[ucfdiver]

So is it safe to go up 58ft in 5 seconds, and then take 55 seconds to go the other 2ft? lol

I like the slower than your bubbles line of thought, especially as a new diver, it was hard to ascend at a steady rate.

 

[String]

I've yet to hear a situation where the backup not being on a necklace isn't the safest way. If someone brings one up, I'll gladly consider it and change my diving style.

A few incidents here where people wearing backmounted ponies have died related to this. 2 regs around the neck, breathing from pony which runs out at depth and they drown not realising to switch regs.

I've yet to hear anything that its the safest way, simple another way of doing things. I don't see any difference to having it round the neck vs having it clearly visible in the chest area.
A second stage for buddy use should be 2 things - clearly visible and easily accessible. If its neither of those your primary may be taken regardless of training. If it is both the above chances are the octopus be taken as intended.