Saba - be careful

[morecowbells]

I am not going to comment on my opinion of a 12 year old doing deep dives. I would be not surprised if your credit card denies your request for a complete refund. In this economy, with many businesses folding, the credit card companies are busier than ever handling disputes. While I understand your aggravation with the Saba Divers telling you one thing only to offer a different service, I do not believe there are any 'guaranteed dive sites' since these decisions can change depending on the weather, divers experience etc. Saba Divers has the legal right to defend their decision to your credit card company and demand payment for their service. In summary, I would ammend your request for a full refund and request a refund for half the amount. Afterall, you did not you did not disembark the boat and decline diving with them. You still received a service, just not exactly what you were hoping for. I hope you let us know what happens.

p.s. when I went diving in Saba last year, we never made it to the pinnacles, the water was rough and the weather uncooperative the entire trip. We still saw some cool stuff though.

 

[SafeDiver]

Dear Divers from the Scubaboard

We are new to this forum and we thank the people who notified us about this discussion since we were not aware of it up to recently.

After we read most of the content we felt like most of you would like to have our point of view on this matter.
There were several reasons why we didn't answer Mr. Perry's email (Perry is his first name).
We really didn't want to get in a discussion with him again over an issue which was discussed with him already.

Nevertheless we appreciate your interest and by reading your ideas and thoughts we felt it necessary to point our view of what has happened.
First of all, we are a well-known and recognized dive operation and we are proud of a safe and accident free operation since we have opened our doors on Saba nine years ago. We got excellent reviews and are voted for one of the best dive centers in the Caribbean for the fourth time by the readers and divers of Europe's biggest dive publication ÅÕauchen?

I myself, Wolfgang the owner, PADI Master Instructor, CMAS 2 star Moniteur etc, and founder of Saba Divers had always the dream to establish a dive center which is safe, fun and delivers outstanding service. I hope we have achieved this with Saba Divers: A small, personal and good dive center. Many of you have noticed that we really care because we are divers ourselves and we think safety should be always first in diving but not to forget to have fun and a great experience as well.

As my friend Mike Myers, the former owner of Saba Deep always said to his customers: You don't pay for the diving you pay for the maintenance the diving is free. A joke of course but what he was trying to say is that we love diving and we would like to share this love with our divers beyond the money part. Certainly we do not need to trick or bait anyone into a dive trip to Saba and then mess it up. That's not the way you get good reviews and run a recognized dive center for as long as we have.

The issue with Mr. Perry, which I never personally met, is the following: Indeed he had an email correspondence with our office and our office manager wrote him: In general I can not promise a pinnacle dive for certain days since this is depending of the weather conditions. I can assure you that we will do three perfect dives and my base leader told me she will take you and your son as deep as you and Logan feels comfortable (within the PADI limitations). On Saba the weather and the water conditions on the dive sites are constantly changing and the boat captain/instructor has to decide on a daily basis were the best place to go for the day to get the best dives out of it for our divers. As Mr. Perry acknowledges himself the weather that day wasnÃÕ that good at all and none of Saba dive shops/boats went out for a pinnacle dive, not with our experienced divers nor theirs.
Our base leader has 18 years dive experience in the Caribbean and we trust her judgment 100%. When Mr. Perry arrived with his son they were checked in the dive center and then he paid for the dives. At that point he became upset when our base leader and another experienced instructor discussed with him his sonÃÔ age, experience and Mr. Perry's request for a specific site given the weather conditions and guest experience. It was still time to cancel all the dives or maybe approach a next dive center. Of course we understand that Mr. Perry made the effort to come here to dive and that's what he did. Mr. Perry and his son did 3 dives each, and they had in his own words a ÅÏice time? They obviously had a great day etc. Quote from Mr. Perry's first email: First and foremost, we had a great time today and I want to thank you and especially Hilary for taking us on the third dive
even after there was an issue with the boat. It was not an easy day given the weather, and both Logan and I had a very nice time.
After that he expressed his disappointment about the problems with the deep diving of his son etc. Giving the weather and the conditions we are sure that we did the right thing in trying to limit the depth of all the guests on the day including Mr. Perry's son. Other divers on the boat told me personally that they were very upset and asked us why we would take such a father and son out because part of their day was spoiled giving Mr. Perry's behavior. Some of our regular divers told me that Mr. Perry was not exactly a buddy to his son since on several occasions they or the instructor had to help him into the water and out of the water on to the boat since no father was close enough to do that.
We feel very bad about the whole incident and since Mr. Perry in our experience maybe needs to review his buddy techniques and practices. We support our instructor decision 100% not to take him to an even deeper dive.
On one side we understand Mr. Perry being upset because he wanted something else for him and his son. On the other side we think we are right since diving is not all about DEEP diving, it's about enjoyment, fun, experience, adventure, environment and SAFETY. I responded to Mr. Perry once and said sorry that he could not do the deep dive but pointed out to him how upset he would have been with us if something would have happened. That made him even more furious I guess. Especially for a child it should be made clear that the first rule in diving is safety first to prevent them from wrong assessments in their later dive career. Of course, as all good dive operators, our first goal is to make all our divers happy and offer them the most for their money within safe limitations. We find that is their right. On the other hand, as some of you pointed out, it is the responsibility of the dive center and their instructors to make a profound decision of the person they dive with (you learn that in the PADI dive master course already) and adjust the dive profile to the daily conditions and experience level of the divers on board.
Nevertheless we are very sorry that Mr. Perry feels that he didn't get what he paid for, but as he self admits he had a good time and he accepted our services for six dives. For the third dive they even went out with the boat and crew only for themselves.
None of us is happy about this and we admit that Mr. Perry is certainly not a diver we are happy to take out diving since our philosophy of safety and diving are very different.
What ever some of you might think, we will continue to run a safe and solid dive center and stay committed to safe diving practice and good service.

I have the feeling that a lot of divers will continue the discussion anyway and I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings.
Since I have to leave for a dive show to Europe for some weeks I might not be able to continue this discussion with you but I hope that most of you will understand our decision and support responsible dive operators and instructors who take their business and job serious and care about their divers. Because that's what we do!

We from Saba Divers & Scout's Place wish all of you safe and enjoyable dives and a great dive vacation wherever you go.

Wolfgang Tooten
PADI Master Instructor

 

[ScubaSteve]

Thank you for sharing your side Wofgang. Every story has 2 sides and I am glad that you chose to join ScubaBoard to share yours. I am sure that your divers will continue to enjoy safe diving in Saba. It is unfortunate, but sometimes it is impossible to satisfy everybody. I am glad that Mr. Perry enjoyed his dives even though he may have been left dissatisfied at some point. I always say a day on a diving vacation is better than a day at work. I even got to say this in Bonaire in October when I could not dive for 2.5 days due to Tropical Storm Omar.

 

[Scuba Laura]

I applaud the decision and the way this whole unfortunate event was handled. As an owner/operator of a dive center, I can truly appreciate the way you handle your business. I am honoured to recommend you to any of our clients. What started out as a negative impact turned a 360 into a positive for you.

To the father - as others have said, you should be thanking these people for taking the correct approach and making the right decisions. It's not easy for us to do sometimes, but, we are the ones who are responsible. To publicly humiliate this company is by far so unprofessional and unfair to them. As dive operators we strive for a good reputation, and what takes years to achieve can be destroyed in one post, as you attempted. And just what example have you given to your son? As a Father, you should be leading by example teaching him the right way to react and handle things. Maybe you should concentrate on that instead of blaming others of their faults (which is really your own). I hope you keep diving with your son and teach him the buddy system to keep him safe, as well as there may come a day when your son will be the buddy who will keep you safe. Please do not feel upset by this whole thread, but learn from it. There are alot of people who have posted with way more experience than yourself. After all, we are all learning everyday. Once you think you've learned it all, you will be defeated.

Stay safe, keep diving, keep learning.

 

[fishgrl]

As an instructor who has previously worked on Saba and seen "experienced" adult divers have panic attacks at the surface before diving a pinnacle, there is no way I would ever put myself in the extremely liable position of of taking a 12 year old to 30m (90ft). Our decisions are based on risk assessment and the strong possibilty of being sued if something were to go wrong and your son dies... Believe it or not, your son will be old enough soon. Why don't you be patient and wait for him to be ready for the experience?

 

[fatherandsondiver]

For what its worth, I will insert some direct quotes. Good to see the dive operator personally post a response on the board. It is too bad he does not answer his emails directly however, and I am "glad" he is on a first name basis - I attempted to keep references to individuals out of this.

My initial email contact:
"I want to just clarify upfront that we will have no issue diving deep with my son. XXXX is 12 and has been diving since the day he turned 10. We will be diving with XXXX in Anguilla together for the third year and he has been to Dominica and to Saba last year. The reason for my concern is that when we came to Saba (with SabaDeep), we had been told that XXXX would be OK to do deep dives, but somebody objected while we were getting registered (XXXX, the owner explained afterward that he was really sorry, but he was selling his business, and he needed to follow the rule, even though he had interpreted the rule differently when we making our reservation. In the end, we did three dives, but two were shallow and on the deep one, XXXX needed to stay at 60 feet or so and just watch me at the reef - I felt terrible about it. XXXX actually did not charge us for the diving as he felt badly and said XXXX was a great diver (skill and respect for instructor), but we spend a day and a lot of money to get to Saba in the first place."

Their response:
"In general I can not promise a pinnacle dive for certain days since this is
depending of the weather condition. But we always try to dive a pinnacle. I
can assure you that we will do three perfect dives and my base leader XXXX
told me she will take you and your son as deep as you and XXXX feel
comfortable." It is interesting to see that the operator inserts additional language about Padi rules into the text, as that language was not in their email.

I did write them back after the dive and thank them for the experience, and I pointed out that they should have been better with their upfront disclosure. The owner then incited me with his one and only email to me, which is why this spun out of control:

"Besides you being disappointed about the deep dive for your son I had some complaints from our other divers, which were very upset that we took your son at all and then that deep. At one point they told me that his nose was bleeding when he tried to equalize and at the second dive he needed a long time to get down as well etc. Obviously they were very upset with us and you. They had the feeling that you wanted your son to do it, without him being so happy about it. I don't know if that's the case but that's the way they saw it. So we stuck in a catch 22. We couldn't make it right for you and we couldn't make it right for them."

Not a very truthful accounting of what happened. This is why I was and am angry. There was a lack of regret for miscommunication and accusation that my son should not of been there used to justify a decision. Understand that the decision was made before my son entered the water. Understand also that my son and I were never more than one foot apart, except when he chose to come up early with his divemaster.

Lets say I was wrong about the scuba and a bad person. It still doe snot justify their invitation to me to dive deep and then their change of heart. They also should answer their emails once they start something. I would not do business with them again.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Your son should have been diving with you. Why did he come up early with the DM? If he had to watch you on the reef this was not the ops fault. This was yours. If what the operator says about the other guests is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, your son should have been on another less strenuous dive with more beginners. 30 dives in 2 years is not very many dives. Especially for a 12 yr old. And he should not have been allowed to go below 60 feet. If the general dive plan was for a depth beyond that then he should have sat that dive out. And you still have not answered the question about why if you both are such great divers you needed a DM for him at all. You both should be capable of planning and executing the dive as a buddy team with minimal advice from the DM. If he needs his own DM when you are supposed to be his dive buddy then he is not ready to do those types of dives. And obviously you are not prepared to do them with him on your own. The dive op did the right thing and if I ever get the chance I'll dive with them and refer my students to them since their number one priority appears to be the safety and comfort of all their guests,

 

[Web Monkey]

Not a very truthful accounting of what happened. This is why I was and am angry. There was a lack of regret for miscommunication and accusation that my son should not of been there used to justify a decision.

You're still missing the point: 12 year old children are not allowed to go to 80' because they're not physically or mentally ready, regardless of your perceptions of his maturity level or what anybody said to you. Your son was properly excluded from a dive he should not have been on, and restricted to depths appropriate for his age.

I'm astonished that you feel cheated and call this "bait and switch", since this is your son and the dive op was trying to keep him safe. In fact, even if you were "deceived" you should still be grateful. If you had managed to find a dive op that actually would take him on a dive in conditions he's not ready for (mentally or physically), this thread could easily have been in the "condolences" forum.

As JimLap said above, if I ever have the opportunity, I'll recommend Saba Divers to any of my students.

Terry

 

[ScubaSteve]

I have to agree with Jim. 30 dives really is not a lot of dives when spread over 3 seasons. And, from what I can gather, you only dive on vacation which means those dives are concentrated in a week or two each year.

A lot of what an experienced diver has going for them is the fact that with steady repetition, diving skills and rules become engrained in their mind. Diving becomes true second nature. Vacation divers rarely reach that engraining point because there is no repetition coming from a lot of practice. So, 30 dives really is not a lot.

I do however support you without taking either side, that if the Dive Op said one thing, and did not follow through with it, then that is wrong. If however in the end they explained why they could not follow through on it, then IMO they have made it right. A company has many people representing them in many ways throughout the course of a transaction, and it sometimes happens that someone will say something that seemed right with what they knew, but as soon as new information comes available, a different course of action becomes the obvious safe choice. This happens all the time and there really is nothing wrong with it as long as a complete explanation is given and financial retribution is given if warranted.

From what I have seen, you got the exaplanation but seem to disagree with thier logic. It is unfortunate but it really is impossible to make everybody happy all the time. In business, you will always step on someone's toes and you (the Dive Op in this case) need to accpet that someone may not be happy but know that you did what was safest. I see that as where they are. You are just unable to get past their decision. I suggest you accept it and start planning lots of local diving charters with your son for the summer so that your son can become a true experienced diver (see my notes about repetition above). And then, plan another trip somewhere that perhaps does not involve Saba so that you can go with a clear mind. There really is no need for a dive vacation to be ruined because of a previous bad experience. Move on and make a SPLASH as you do a giant stride into the blue.

 

[JB]

I think the community is to blame for the obsession with depth. The current super hero's , who write the books and design the courses for deep diving, began their careers bragging about going to 80 or 100 meters with a single 80cfu tank of air, SAC of 3 or something ridiculous.( Now they write the rules and prevent others from enjoying Russian Roulette, as they had enjoyed.) The training agencies reinforce this by certifying to progressively deeper limits, the implication is that better divers go deeper??!! So to prove competency one needs to go deep, or at least to be considered by ones peers capable of going deep? (The very best do it on air and hardly breath). In reality there aren't many reasons to dive deep, perhaps the most common reason is a wreck.
There is obviously a personality clash here, both sides will get their fare share of supporters, and there will be no winner, both parties will loose something the more specific and personal the revelations/accusations become. Trial by media or forum for that matter, is never satisfactory. There are 2 issues, The operator is probably in the right with regard to depth limits, and the customer is probably in the right with regard to an agreed service being reneged upon. There will be no resolution on this forum, (for a final decision get OJ's jury) but it has highlighted the potential risk, for youngsters. Can't wait for mine 6yrs and 9 yrs to come underwater with me, but I might hold out untill they are much older, and choose to do this of their own volition, and not because I want them to, forget the training agency limits, I'll add a few years for safety, at least until the epiphyses close. Thanks for that.
Enjoy the dive not the depth.