Lost Buddy Marker

[piikki]

I have no idea if there are a lot of arrow shenanigans going on in caves, and how often permanent arrows are replaced etc but maybe permanent ones could be threaded to lines in different way if this REALLY is a common problem. This way one could universally feel them (blind) and know right away they are the REAL DEAL. I guess doing them like pearls would be a bit much to ask though




(How often has someone gotten in trouble because of someone else's private markers vs just making navigational errors when everything was down correctly - except maybe their own markers??)

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Kelly,

I agree with you that no line arrow should ever be pointing any direction but to the closest exit. However, I believe what is taught in lost buddy drills and in lost line drills, is to place an arrow on the line. (the NACD Cave Diver Workbook from a few years back says to put an arrow on the line for lost buddy drills, and does not say to do the same for lost line drills. I believe I was personally taught that in a lost line situation, you should put an arrow on the line. This will let others see which direction you went, if they come to your arrow in their search for you. It does have the hazard of potentially confusing other divers. But, a standard cookie will not tell a searcher which direction you went (note: the arrow is always supposed to point the way out, but odds are, you are heading out at this point, which is why the way you went and the arrow direction are assumed to be synonomous). Supposedly, if you went the wrong way, you'd run into another arrow which would correct your direction of travel, and when you got back to your arrow, you would flip the direction around. Any diver who was confused by your arrow, you would have presumably intercepted once you turned around.) The arrow should always point the way out, but I believe an arrow, or some directional marker, should be used in this situation. As I said before, it will let you know what you were thinking when you dropped it. If you get further disoriented and come back to the same marker, it can be important to be reminded of what you were thinking before. I do agree, an arrow will have problems if it is pointed the wrong way, but in a lost buddy situation, it should be pointing the right way. It is only during the lost line situation that I could imagine a diver getting confused and putting an arrow facing the wrong way.

In every stressful situation I have been in, I was capable of looking at the arrow and determining who it belonged to: me, my buddy, or the cave. If I couldn't look at it, I was able to feel it and know it wasn't mine or my buddy's, but the cave's. But I do know there are divers out there that don't pay any attention at all to arrows they pass, and everyone can react poorly under stress.

 

[karstdvr]

. Supposedly, if you went the wrong way, you'd run into another arrow which would correct your direction of travel, and when you got back to your arrow, you would flip the direction around.

This is exactly what helped to promote the double fatality at Madison. Nobody will ever know if they would have had enough gas to make it out from the half-hitch,but from the information that was downloaded from their dive computers,they wasted a lot of gas traveling back and forth between contradicting line arrows
.

In every stressful situation I have been in, I was capable of looking at the arrow and determining who it belonged to: me, my buddy, or the cave. If I couldn't look at it, I was able to feel it and know it wasn't mine or my buddy's, but the cave's. But I do know there are divers out there that don't pay any attention at all to arrows they pass, and everyone can react poorly under stress.

I agree awareness of the cave,line etc can save your life. I know so many people who will enter a system for the first time and blow back there 2000',and have missed critical details that could save them in an emergency. I always felt wreck divers got it right with progressive penetration.

 

[sea2summit]

So not to throw a wrench in this but I was taught if I was lost in a silt out to place the line arrow in the direction I was going after I tied my spool in. So in theory I go to the first line arrow I find and if it's "going my way" I'm good if not turn go back to my arrow and switch it to my new direction of travel. This was to aid my buddy or search team. Is this not what everyone else does?

Only bring this up because we're talking about arrows and which way they go. If you're really lost in a cave/silted out you might not know which way is up let alone which way is out when you find that line.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

This is exactly what helped to promote the double fatality at Madison. ,they wasted a lot of gas traveling back and forth between contradicting line arrows

I'm not familiar with that fatality. Was the contradictory arrow placed by a diver who had lost the line or his buddy?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I was taught if I was lost in a silt out to place the line arrow in the direction I was going after I tied my spool in.

My idea & what I teach is to place the spool/reel clip, or double ender on the line, after I relocate the lost line to indicate the direction you are travelling, to what you THINK is the exit direction. If you confirm it is the wrong direction (by finding an arrow pointing in the opposite direction, or other means) turn around then reposition the clip/double ender, when you reach it again(double ender for a spool) change it to the direction you NOW think is the exit, the direction you are travelling. If I am looking for you & come across this configuration I know which way you travelled when you were last at the spool/reel.

This gives no conflicting exit direction to another diver & lets your buddy know which way you are currently travelling.

It is paramount for us to never place a directional arrow on a line that does not definitely point toward the nearest exit.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

As an addendum, I'm assuming the lost line drill/event happens in a low to no vis situation, or a lights out situation. In that case, you have run a reel to the line, and tie in to your arrow. A diver should be able to feel the whole reel/arrow fustercluck and that might tip them off to the fact that the arrow isn't necessarily garaunteed to be correct. I'm not talking so much about situations where an arrow is just thrown on the line. The lost buddy drill should not have a conflicting arrow, but a lost line drill might, and if it does, it should be accompanied by a reel hanging off of it, indicating to other divers that it was a lost line situation and the arrow might be incorrect.

I'm definitely anti-wrong-way-pointing-arrows

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

and that might tip them off to the fact that the arrow isn't necessarily garaunteed to be correct.

Yes, it might do that.

 

[Meng_Tze]

So not to throw a wrench in this but I was taught if I was lost in a silt out to place the line arrow in the direction I was going after I tied my spool in. So in theory I go to the first line arrow I find and if it's "going my way" I'm good if not turn go back to my arrow and switch it to my new direction of travel. This was to aid my buddy or search team. Is this not what everyone else does?

Only bring this up because we're talking about arrows and which way they go. If you're really lost in a cave/silted out you might not know which way is up let alone which way is out when you find that line.

Not picking on you, but what agency did you do the cave training with? If you were taught to put an arrow in the direction YOU went, and not per se the general direction of the other arrows, we could have a mis-alignment between training standards?

 

[sea2summit]

Not picking on you, but what agency did you do the cave training with? If you were taught to put an arrow in the direction YOU went, and not per se the general direction of the other arrows, we could have a mis-alignment between training standards?

PADI Cavern (I was dooped seriously I jumped on some desks when I got my card) IANTD for CCR Cave. The way I was tought is the arrow would not be left if I travel down the line and find a real arrow and turn around when I get to my arrow it would be changed to the correct direction indicating 1) i'm no longer lost 2) I'm on my way out.

Mr. Wyatt I'm not tracking on how your talking about clipping off using the dog clip for direction. Your talking wrap your spool/reel on the line then clip off to that line instead of back on your own correct?