The LEARNERS PERMIT!

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Yes, training can always be increased. The philosophy has changed from becoming certified and being competent to be a member of a buddy team, diving independent from a DM or Instructor; to requiring someone to take you by the hand and not being competent to rescue your buddy if this is required (that's the DM's job). I just don't see the current formula to be the correct one.




So you're saying that every diver who is certified knows the ins and outs of rip currents, where they should enter and where they should exit? Can identify them accurately? Can project their air consumption for any depth? That sure isn't my experience. Most of the dive planning seems to be, go to a LDS and they provide a DM.



The divers to which I refer are OW and Advanced divers not requiring supervision. I was not a "vacation" charter operator (operating out of Vancouver).



The first has already started to happen. The province of Quebec instigated a government certification as a result of the high number of diving fatalities which were caused by an increasing lack of proper instruction.

I would be fine with the second point; I currently teach for free in a club setting. Many Instructors may not like this, as it will affect the bottom line. Again it comes down to money. I don't know many Instructors who feel that they couldn't do a better job, if they had more time to provide additional training. If they felt otherwise, they are not much of an Instructor.

Yes, I have to agree that the current training formula has room for major improvement.

Training has certainly been dumbed down since my Y cert in 1970, but the entire sport has grown and changed a whole lot since those days, too, as has the type of person seeking such training. A large portion of today's new dive customer would be scared away from the sport if they had to spend weeks in class room, not to mention the cost such a class would entail today. Like it or not financial cost, benefits, rewards, etc, as well as convenience to the potential customer, all have a bearing on what training methods will prosper and survive.

Another factor is that there are so many different types of diving included in sport diving, that it would be difficult indeed to train every new diver in every skill they might someday need. A student here in upstate New York learning and diving in fw lakes isn't going to really learn about rip tide entires, etc, in depth, nor all the skills required of say a new diver training and diving in high altitudes. Navigation kills learned in clear warm Caribbean waters will need to be improved threw experience, and hopefully mentoring by an experienced buddy, instructor, or DM, when that new diver encounters near zero viz diving for the first time.

If you can teach a new diver to recognize what they don't know enough about, and seek further training or guidence before they risk themselves or others, I think THAT would be some of the best training you coud offer, since you'll never be able to teach every student everything they need to know someday in every situation, today.
 
Yes, I have to agree that the current training formula has room for major improvement. ...If you can teach a new diver to recognize what they don't know enough about, and seek further training or guidence before they risk themselves or others, I think THAT would be some of the best training you coud offer, since you'll never be able to teach every student everything they need to know someday in every situation, today.

I agree with what you're saying. I wouldn't expect to teach a diver everything they would need to know in every situation, but I think that a certified OW diver should be able to:

- swim and be comfortable in the water ("I'm nervous around the water; I don't swim very well);
- put on a BC properly (not backwards);
- be aware of his buddy (Where's your Buddy? "I think I had one when I started");
- not be over-weighted;
- be able to reasonably maintain his depth; and
- not to run out of air during a dive and require assistance on the surface.

I also expect:

- not to have to pull divers along the surface to get to the boat;
- them to be competent to look after their decompression profile;
- them to be able to do a pre-dive inspection ("I just realized, I have no pressure in my tank!" Your computer battery is dead. "Oh I thought something was wrong." The guys standing on the stern waiting to be inspected before entry).

Throw me a bone here!! Sorry, I cannot help but laugh... :)
 
. . .I think that a certified OW diver should be able to:

- swim and be comfortable in the water ("I'm nervous around the water; I don't swim very well);

"Comfortable" is relative. I'm pretty sure all certs require some swimming skills however. That some instructors pass people who are not legitimately passing those skill test is really a different issue (and yes, it's something I've seen and am concerned about as well).

- put on a BC properly (not backwards);

PADI - scapegoat of the "diving instruction sucks" crowd - requires the unassisted and unprompted proper donning of gear to pass the course. I can't imagine a course that doesn't.

- be aware of his buddy (Where's your Buddy? "I think I had one when I started");
- not be over-weighted;
- be able to reasonably maintain his depth; and
- not to run out of air during a dive and require assistance on the surface.

All part of minimum standards in every course I've seen.

- not to have to pull divers along the surface to get to the boat;

That's going to happen in rougher waters. The dive population reflects the population at large. Too many potato chips and not enough walking.

- them to be competent to look after their decompression profile;

It's taught and tested.

- them to be able to do a pre-dive inspection ("I just realized, I have no pressure in my tank!" Your computer battery is dead. "Oh I thought something was wrong." The guys standing on the stern waiting to be inspected before entry).

So's that . . .

In other words -- everything you're mentioning is part of the most minimum standards out there.

As you've acknowledged, the frequency divers dive has changed, what happens is that divers only dive a few times a year and those skills and knowledge are lost.

It is not unreasonable, for example, to have someone who hasn't been diving in a year go up to a DM and say "hey, could you help me with my pre-dive check?" Are you suggesting you'd rather have that person NOT seek help?

Nor is it unreasonable for someone who is newly minted as a diver to want to double check their knowledge. And that is true regardless of the level of training in a subject. Brand new graduates from medical schools and newly minted lawyers both work under the close supervision of more experienced practitioners for a reason. And I'd suggest that they have fairly extensive training prior to graduation.
 
In other words -- everything you're mentioning is part of the most minimum standards out there.

It might surprise you to hear that I'm not an idiot. Interestingly enough, I'm university educated, am 56 years of age and have three adult sons. Having been instructing diving recreationally and commercially for the past 37 years, I have some idea about learning retention. I also know what is a reasonable question to ask as a new diver and when I answer it and get a "Oh, my Instructor didn't cover that," I have to wonder. Especially if this happens over and over again. It doesn't matter if in-fact the Instructor did or didn't cover it; it's the Instructor's job to teach and for the student to have demonstrable skills and knowledge. Some of these divers came to me the next weekend after certification.

Having been an Instructor with five organizations, I fully understand what many of the standards say. Some of these are in-fact insufficient in my opinion, but that is another issue. When divers are newly certified and don't have a clue, it's not brain surgery to realize that they need more training. I would hope that any experienced Instructor would be quick to pick this up.

If I wouldn't let them out of the pool, what's motivating these Instructors to do so. Ah yes, the certification machine... Not all Instructors succumb to this, but the ones that think a C-card is a "learners permit without firm deliverables" tend to be more, well lets just say "forgiving."
 
I have to say that, especially in the beginning certifications there is no way the instructor has done any more than "just cracked the door open a bit" for the new diver, with just a couple of days of class room and training dives. That is one reason many good instructors and LDS offer new divers the oportunity to continue diving with their group after issuing the certification; there is no way the new diver is fully trained in a few days of training and a small handful of dives.

Without trying to be too much of a hard-ass, that's not an excuse. If it's not possible to make a competent diver in a couple of days, then the instructor shouldn't sign the card.

Training should absolutely continue after certification, but for new skills, not what should already have been taught. Once the instructor signs the OW card, the diver should absolutely be capable of diving in conditions similar to or better than training, with nothing but a buddy and the desire to "go diving".

Terry
 
As you've acknowledged, the frequency divers dive has changed, what happens is that divers only dive a few times a year and those skills and knowledge are lost.

It is not unreasonable, for example, to have someone who hasn't been diving in a year go up to a DM and say "hey, could you help me with my pre-dive check?" Are you suggesting you'd rather have that person NOT seek help?

I would suggest that non-divers take a class that covers all of the required material and last long enough that they actually have a chance to learn everything and practice all the skills until they, and the instructor are both happy (not just until "we're out of time").

After a long break, I would suggest a SCUBA Skills Update class. Just asking the DM to help with a pre-dive check is like asking someone on the plane to check your parachute when the real problem is that you don't remember how or when to open it.

Terry
 
It might surprise you to hear that I'm not an idiot. Interestingly enough, I'm university educated, am 56 years of age and have three adult sons. Having been instructing diving recreationally and commercially for the past 37 years, I have some idea about learning retention.

I have not once questioned your qualifications, intelligence or education. It might surprise you to remove the chip from your shoulder and read what I wrote. With your university education I'm sure you've opened one or two peer-reviewed journals and noted that highly educated people can have vociferous, even hostile disagreements with each other without once contending that the disagreement is based on intelligence, training, competency or anything other than matters of interpretation of available information.


I also know what is a reasonable question to ask as a new diver and when I answer it and get a "Oh, my Instructor didn't cover that," I have to wonder.

Why? Similar responses are very common among people who have failed to retain information. Most people both over-estimate their own competence and deflect responsibility.

Especially if this happens over and over again. It doesn't matter if in-fact the Instructor did or didn't cover it; it's the Instructor's job to teach and for the student to have demonstrable skills and knowledge. Some of these divers came to me the next weekend after certification.

I have not disputed the existence of poor instructors. Nor have I defended the rise of a certification industry that rests on top of the diving world. In fact I've been critical of said industry because it encourages and rewards the skirting of standards. But that is not an indictment of the standards per se, and can not be used as a blanket condemnation of training as a whole unless you can demonstrate that what you're seeing is normative.

It would be interesting to know how many of those you deem incompetent to your liking are infrequent divers relatively removed from their training compared to those who are newly trained. It would also be interesting to know something about the geographic regions they come from, and even the specific shops. Lastly it would be interest to know how many instructors with significant experience likewise feel that said divers are inadequately skilled. Of course, such data is likely not available, and thus we are relying on anecdotal evidence. And as the old saw goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Having been an Instructor with five organizations, I fully understand what many of the standards say. Some of these are in-fact insufficient in my opinion, but that is another issue. When divers are newly certified and don't have a clue, it's not brain surgery to realize that they need more training. I would hope that any experienced Instructor would be quick to pick this up.

It's also not brain surgery to realize that it is very possible for students to pass relatively stringent performance requirements and then quickly loose those abilities. That is what gave rise to the concept of just-in-time training. Even a short break between demonstration of skills and their actual use can significantly effect retention. And that is a phenomenon that increases with age. Since the diver population is getting older, it is not unexpected to see that manifesting itself.

But we ultimately come back to this: what is the level of risk the participants and industry is capable of bearing?

If I wouldn't let them out of the pool, what's motivating these Instructors to do so. Ah yes, the certification machine... Not all Instructors succumb to this, but the ones that think a C-card is a "learners permit without firm deliverables" tend to be more, well lets just say "forgiving."

I would suggest, though only through my own anecdotal observation, that this is far more common in two categories of shops, not instructors:

* those businesses who have single contact with divers -- primarily resorts and cruise ships

* those dive shops who have very little local diving and thus very little revenue from equipment sales, additional training, and servicing of gear.

Certainly instructors are the one's signing the cards. But the reality is that for the most part they wouldn't be instructing without the shop support, so it is the shop, not the instructor setting the rules. And for those instructors who are also the shop owners, cognitive dissonance tends to resolve in the direction of self interest.

I am not in disagreement with you that there are a lot of bad instructors out there. Nor am I in disagreement that there are divers who's skills leave something to be desired.

Where I disagree with you is that those insufficiency at the rates they occur now are cause for real concern across the diving community as a whole. The available accident data that I've seen strongly suggests that this simply isn't the case in terms of relative risk compared to many other activities where training is required or at least strongly suggested.
 
After a long break, I would suggest a SCUBA Skills Update class

That's certainly something that PADI strongly recommends. But diver's do not tend to take advantage of that class offering.
 
I agree with what you're saying. I wouldn't expect to teach a diver everything they would need to know in every situation, but I think that a certified OW diver should be able to:

- swim and be comfortable in the water ("I'm nervous around the water; I don't swim very well);
- put on a BC properly (not backwards);
- be aware of his buddy (Where's your Buddy? "I think I had one when I started");
- not be over-weighted;
- be able to reasonably maintain his depth; and
- not to run out of air during a dive and require assistance on the surface.

I also expect:

- not to have to pull divers along the surface to get to the boat;
- them to be competent to look after their decompression profile;
- them to be able to do a pre-dive inspection ("I just realized, I have no pressure in my tank!" Your computer battery is dead. "Oh I thought something was wrong." The guys standing on the stern waiting to be inspected before entry).

Throw me a bone here!! Sorry, I cannot help but laugh... :)

:rofl3: You got me there. Something went terribly wrong on the certification end of things there!!! :shakehead: :rofl3: :rofl3:

Without trying to be too much of a hard-ass, that's not an excuse. If it's not possible to make a competent diver in a couple of days, then the instructor shouldn't sign the card.

Training should absolutely continue after certification, but for new skills, not what should already have been taught. Once the instructor signs the OW card, the diver should absolutely be capable of diving in conditions similar to or better than training, with nothing but a buddy and the desire to "go diving".

Terry

I think I was saying something quite similar, but in a different way.

I would suggest that non-divers take a class that covers all of the required material and last long enough that they actually have a chance to learn everything and practice all the skills until they, and the instructor are both happy (not just until "we're out of time").

After a long break, I would suggest a SCUBA Skills Update class. Just asking the DM to help with a pre-dive check is like asking someone on the plane to check your parachute when the real problem is that you don't remember how or when to open it.

Terry

To this I also agree, but enforcement becomes difficult.

Look guys, I am not saying that training is never low quality, some of it certainly is, or that training programs currently have no room for improvement, again they certainly could be improved. All I am saying is that the OW (or even AOW) certification is just the first step. The beginning certifications are building blocks toward a more complete diver, and teaching the new diver to recognize what they do not yet know, and where to find additional expertise and/or training would be highly beneficial to that new diver. Not the deliberate "un-bundling" of skill sets to maximize profits we see a lot of, but teaching the awareness of the need to continue to learn and expand the skill base after receiving a "Card".
 
Not to sidetrack this (which probably isn't possible, because bemoaning the state of diver training is one of our favorite pastimes here) but I'd like to echo the OPs thoughts about struggle. I keep the journal of my open water class in my sig line here because I think it's important that people know that not everyone takes to diving like a fish to water. Some of us flounder and struggle and make even egregious mistakes and take horrendous amounts of time to master simple skills.

I got my full cave last week, which simply says that perserverence and determination will get you where you want to go in SPITE of a lack of talent. Diving can be learned, although there are times when I wasn't really sure that was true :)
 
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