Calling all ponies

[AndrewA]

When I dive in the 20-30 m depth range on a single tank I usually side sling an Al 30 as redundancy (deeper I normally use twins). I use an Apex ATX40 reg with a 1.2m hose bungied to the tank, a standard SPG on a 15cm (6") hose. I also have a standard inflator hose on the reg which I use to infate SMBs etc. I pressurise the reg before I enter the water and then leave the tank valve closed.
The side slung tank is intended as by personal redundancy so I would normally donate my long hose in an OOA siuation but the side slung gives me the option to pass it off to an OOA diver once the "emergency" has been dealt with.

 

[Amphibious]

Andrew, I miss your Camel Market

 

[sdiver68]

SA is useless.

Except for the several real life accounts, even here on ScubaBoard, where people have credited SA with making a difficult situation much easier. Scuba Diving easily got up from 70ft with the 3.0 version.

I really don't understand the Pony/SA bashing and I've read most of the prior threads on the topic.

Should you ever run out of air? No, never, no excuse, I understand that even as a newbie. Should you consider SA a 2nd air source? No, in the best case a 3rd emergency source. Should SA be used by those experienced with all sorts of specialty certs? I don't know. But if something stupid happens on a typical 60' OW rec dive and it gives you a few more breaths to take action or surface as has been the documented case with others I cannot understand the harm.

 

[dhuskins]

Not everyone is willing to dive with a 20+ cu ft "pony". I certainly am not willing to lug the extra tank and don't want a side tank when I am trying to take pictures. I like my freedom of movement and don't want the extra profile. I cannot ever see myself hiking across the beach at Monastery with a drysuit and a ton of lead AND a second sizable bottle.

On the other hand, a 3 cu ft Spare Air or a 6 cu ft pony is not that inconvenient. Both of them will get me from 120 feet up to some point where I can make a CESA that I feel comfortable with. I would rather have something like a spare air than nothing.

I think of it as insurance. With proper planning and careful management, your house will not flood or burn down. So why buy insurance? We buy it because it is better than having nothing when the extremely rare situation happens.

 

[Bonairetrip]

On the other hand, a 3 cu ft Spare Air or a 6 cu ft pony is not that inconvenient. Both of them will get me from 120 feet up to some point where I can make a CESA that I feel comfortable with. I would rather have something like a spare air than nothing.

Care to show your math?

Here would be mine: I dive to 120 FSW with a SAC of 0.5 cft/min (pretty good for a non-stressed situation). I want to ascend at 33 FPM. Even though I ran out of air at 120 FSW, I have no deco obligations. I am fine blowing past the safety stop. I am using a 3 cft Spare Air. I am a very cool cucumber and my SAC does not go up in an OOA, I instantly recognize and deploy my SA and I have no issues I need to solve (like what caused me to go OOA). My SA is always in 100% working order and is always 100% filled.

If my SAC is 0.5, at 33ft my consumption is 1.0, at 66ft it is 1.5, at 99ft it is 2.0 and at 132 it is 2.5. So, going from 120ft to 99 ft would use about 1.4cft. Going from 99 to 66 1.75 cft. You are OOA before about 70 ft.

How about a more realistic one? You are at 120 FSW and go OOA. Your SAC triples (that is still pretty good). You need about 30 seconds to get oriented and then begin your ascent at 60fpm. How far up do you make it?

I think of it as insurance. With proper planning and careful management, your house will not flood or burn down. So why buy insurance? We buy it because it is better than having nothing when the extremely rare situation happens.

Agreed although I make sure that I have insurance that pretty much make me whole rather than only partway.

The reason people take 13s, 19s, 30s, 40s and doubles is not because they like the size but rather because they are suited for their application.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

Not everyone is willing to dive with a 20+ cu ft "pony"... I would rather have something like a spare air than nothing.

Your presumption begs the conclusion. Given choices A, B, and C you declare you are unwilling to choose "A" regardless of whether it can save your life or not and then you explain why B is better than C. Why not debate A, B, and C on their merits and then adjust your willingness appropriately?

 

[sdiver68]

How about a more realistic one? You are at 120 FSW and go OOA. Your SAC triples (that is still pretty good). You need about 30 seconds to get oriented and then begin your ascent at 60fpm. How far up do you make it?

Realistic?

On my second training dive, the instructor forgot to turn my gas back on during a simulated OOA. So, at the end of the exercise I put in my reg and no air. It took me about 1/2 second to understand what happened, another second to give an OOO signal, and another couple for the instructor to realize his mistake and turn my valve back open. At the most 5 seconds total to be breathing air. And no panic either.

Why would my SAC triple, I know I've got enough air on board to find my buddy or CESA? In fact, I'd say SA might be worth it if for no other reason than to prevent or stall a panic attack in people otherwise prone to such events.

I've seen a whole range of these "realistic scenarios" that aren't realistic at all in these various threads. At least not for typical rec divers. Now I may very well be wrong, SA 3.0/H2O 6.0 might be useless crud, but no one has presented a logical reason why so far. Please show me where my logic is wrong, I can still return mine

It's OK, people told me I did not need the high end leathers, body armor, and helmets when I raced motorcycles semi-professionally. They were mostly right, I didn't need them until some bozo laid his bike down in front of mine at about 125mph.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Hi sdiver68,

People react differently to stressful situations, including sudden "life and death" situations. However, a near-universal responce is an increase in respiration rate. And it is often a DRAMATIC increase, and a totally unconscious reflex. Experienced divers will recognize this as a fact, and can to a certain level "get a grip" quickly in an emergency and keep their breathing controlled. But you need to expect it will increase in a TRUE emergency, and plan accordingly. Tech divers plan their emergency gas reserves with elevated respiration rates in mind.... because time and again it is demonstrated that even with thousands of tough dives under your belt, if you increase the "pucker factor" enough, your respiration rate will rise.

So, back to Spare Air: Is it worthless crud? Of course not. Any air is better than no air. A few breaths can make all the difference. But the problems, as already stated in a million posts, is that you may not have the full 3.0cu ft, you may be breathing faster than anticipated, etc.

Are their better options in the same price range? Yes.

You get to choose what is best for you. But the people who slam Spare Air by and large have no vested interest in what you choose, they are only trying to point out weaknesses in the system that may not be immediately obvious. If you recognize and fully understand the weaknesses, then there is no issue... but when you can get a realistic amount of redundant gas and a real regulator for about the same price?

But, I have "no horse in this race" because I typically don't use a stage or pony at all, even solo

Best wishes.

EDIT: On the topic of the original post: When I do use a pony or stage, it is slung. Typically an Al30.

 

[dhuskins]

My math? It was based on sucking a SA dry on the surface. It took over 11 minutes. 11 minutes and 46 seconds.

Ascending from 99 feet to 66 feet, I would use an average of 3.5 minutes of SAC (4 minutes at 99 and 3 minutes at 66, so the average is about 3.5)

Ascending from 66 to 33 would cost me an average of 2.5 minutes of SAC, and getting to the surface would cost me another 1.5 minutes of SAC. In total, I have consumed 7.5 minutes of what would otherwise be surface breathing. I would be left with just over 4.5 minutes of surface air: enough for a safety stop.

Please reread my comments above. I fully admit that I was sitting relaxed in a chair when I sucked the bottle dry, not responding to an OOA situation where I had to move my body. In a situation where I would need it, I would be consuming at least twice that amount, particularly in the beginning when I am deepest. So, if it doesn't get me to the surface, it will at least get me to a level where I feel more confident about making a CESA. I would rather make a CESA from 30 or 45 feet than from 100 feet.

Having said that, I should point out that I am a strong supporter of air management and buddy diving. I have never been in a situation (other than classes) where I have had to use any air other than my back air. (Yes, I am a rec diver only.)

 

[gcbryan]

My math? It was based on sucking a SA dry on the surface. It took over 11 minutes. 11 minutes and 46 seconds.

Ascending from 99 feet to 66 feet, I would use an average of 3.5 minutes of SAC (4 minutes at 99 and 3 minutes at 66, so the average is about 3.5)

Ascending from 66 to 33 would cost me an average of 2.5 minutes of SAC, and getting to the surface would cost me another 1.5 minutes of SAC. In total, I have consumed 7.5 minutes of what would otherwise be surface breathing. I would be left with just over 4.5 minutes of surface air: enough for a safety stop.

Please reread my comments above. I fully admit that I was sitting relaxed in a chair when I sucked the bottle dry, not responding to an OOA situation where I had to move my body. In a situation where I would need it, I would be consuming at least twice that amount, particularly in the beginning when I am deepest. So, if it doesn't get me to the surface, it will at least get me to a level where I feel more confident about making a CESA. I would rather make a CESA from 30 or 45 feet than from 100 feet.

Having said that, I should point out that I am a strong supporter of air management and buddy diving. I have never been in a situation (other than classes) where I have had to use any air other than my back air. (Yes, I am a rec diver only.)

You say that in the beginning you would be consuming at least twice that amount. If you were at 99 fsw you would be consuming 4 times that amount just based on the depth. Perhaps you mean in addition to that you would be consuming twice as much swimming as sitting in a chair which makes sense of course.

It's true something is better than nothing if it keeps you from drowning. Just be aware that 11 minutes at the surface sitting in a chair is 2.75 minutes at 99 fsw sitting in a chair.