Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Kevin Carlisle]

I doubt Kevin is stating emphatically that Ben was narced. It is just one of the possibilities. It could have been as simple as a silt out...which occurs in seconds and lasts for days.
Visibility is zero. As someone stated before...it is like negative visibility. (darker than any night sky) You could put your flashlight inches from your face and not be able to see a thing. It is in that situation that one is hopelessly lost if they have no trainging to know HOW to recover. And believe me this is not a situation that a trained person wants to deal with either. It takes merely one fin kick to stir up silt. You then grope for the wrong way out...and you are groping if you have NO guide line to help you. You are tragically lost in a system that is not a long giant tube with one way out...but a system with many veins and arteries. You now are running out of air in full panic.

You are right. I myself have been deeper than 150' on air and never experienced narcosis. Everyone is different.
That is not the real point here. It is ONE of the possibilities

Actually I am saying that. You don't really know your narced, I bet you were narced but couldn't tell. I had that lesson proven to me. It hits us all, to what degree is the difference.

 

[Cave Diver]

All we have at this point is a AWOL diver - Who, I might add has been confirmed by many of the best divers in the area as to NOT being in that cave system. So if he's not there, then all other probable causes for his absence must be considered. Perhaps the banjo comment was out of line and in bad taste. But being involved in countless, and I mean countless missing person searches over the years for no other good reason than to determine someone is run away with a boyfriend/girlfriend on many occasions, I guess just makes me a cold hearted feller. Call it as you wish.

Ken

Alternatives should be considered and based on the latest reports about FBI and dogs, it would seem they are.

Although the body has not been found, that does not empirically rule out that it couldn't still be in the cave. A diver who finds themselves panicked, disoriented, or narked in a cave, caught in a silt out, victim of a line trap, equipment failure or whatever could easily find themselves going the wrong way and end up further in a cave system than a reasonable person is willing to risk looking to find them.

There was a case recently when a woman at peacock apparently became disoriented and headed further in and missed navigational marks. This was someone who reportedly had dove this cave for years, but had recently moved into some unfamiliar areas.

If Ben did the same at Vortex, it is conceivable that he ended up in a place beyond normal means, or that his passage or body has been obscured by flow and silt.

Lets keep the possibilities open while not jumping to any conclusions without further proof.

 

[Meister481]

But you don't KNOW that he was narced. Could he have been? Yes. Was he? We don't and will never know. You could make multiple, seemingly idential dives to say 120ft, and only get narced on one dive, or not get narced on one dive, and no one really knows why this is. A friend of mine has been (briefly) to 157' on air (I saw he log from his dive computer and yes, it was deeper than he should have gone ) and did not get narced, but has at shallower depths. You can't simply say someone was narced because they where on air and deep because it doesn't affect every one every time.

Yes, we do. The only way for him to not be narced is for him to stay at a shallower depth. Empirical testing has show that everyone is susceptible to narcosis and that narcosis can only be managed with training and experience. The fact that your friend didn't feel narced was because he wasn't trying to do anything that required a steady thought process.

Source: IANTD Technical Diving Encyclopedia, T.Mount

Yes I do KNOW. At 150+ feet on air everyone is narced. Maybe not in a completely debilitating way but certainly enough to affect thought processes.

Without a doubt this statement is FACT.

 

[dadediver]

... people need to take responsibility for themselves. We all have limitations and as adults we need to recognize what those limitations are and not exceed them.

I truly hope you were joking.

Scott

Yes people need to take responsibilty for themselves. But business has an obligation to protect their customers too.

Someone earlier mentioned that an accident investigation does not place blame. This is some what true in the investigating portion of the accident. But once the investigation is properly completed, quite a few causes has been ruled "human error" which is a cliche that isnt really correct on an accident investigations final report.

There are basically two causes of an accident. A surface cause and a root cause. A long lasting correrctive action will not come from a surface cause. Most times a surface cause is a behavior and a behavior modification is not a long lasting "fix". A system weaknesses always exist prior to the surface causes that created the accident or incident such as programs, policies, plans, processes and engineering controls. So really the only way to receive a long term, true benefit from any accident analysis is to make sure ALL the system weaknesses are uncovered and corrected.

What is wrong with having a system with "checks" and "balances"? To have engineering controls, such as keys, locks, sign in sheets, dive plans dates and times of entering and exiting the water. To be asked to see a log book or certification card.

This is protecting the owners, the customers and everyone else that could be involved in an accident to include the recovery teams.

 

[A&I Mod]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Removed several off-topic posts.
Please stay on topic.
Thank you.

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[Docc]

What is wrong with having a system with "checks" and "balances"? To have engineering controls, such as keys, locks, sign in sheets, dive plans dates and times of entering and exiting the water. To be asked to see a log book or certification card.

That only works if everyone follows the rules you mention.

 

[Tom Smedley]

The release form is on the Vortex web page under training.

Does anyone have a copy of the release form we sign when diving at Vortex?

 

[Airleron]

That only works if everyone follows the rules you mention.

Since Adam and Eve, we have been breaking the rules.

 

[mike_s]

Does anyone have a copy of the release form we sign when diving at Vortex?

I wondered that also.

I also wondered what rules it stated on entering the cave if not properly trained. (I haven't read it in a while and can't remember exactly).


I looked for it but couldn't find it on their web page.


EDIT: Looks like Tom posted above where it was... missed that before my reply.

 

[Hetland]

But you don't KNOW that he was narced.

At 150' 100% of divers are narced. I don't care what you read, or who you have talked to. Everyone will be narced.

It's not like being drunk, it's much more subtle. It's like taking a ram chip out of a computer. You have less reasoning. Memory is impaired. Your inhibitions are reduced. An activity that you would shun on the surface seems perfectly okay at depth. A task that is simple at the surface becomes more difficult, and takes longer to complete.

Most people don't recognize their impairment, but they are impaired.