General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Rick Murchison]

...I don't like the idea of it locking myself in, or even "pretending" to. If I need out of the cave, I want unfettered access, not stopping and screwing with some stupid gate. That's one reason I haven't dove beyond the gate at Vortex. On the other hand, if you're gonna mix open water divers like they do, there has to be something more than an "honor system" to keep people out of the cave.

This is about the third time in this thread someone has mentioned "locking yourself in." I say again, do not lock yourself in the cave. Lock the gate open - that is, lock the lock to the chain with the gate *not* locked so that no one can lock you in with that lock.
The ideal way to dive the Vortex cave is to leave a guard at the gate while the caving team does its thing beyond the gate. We do this whenever possible. Be aware that the guard is deep too and this duty is usually a deco dive as well.
Rick

 

[Cave Diver]

This is about the third time in this thread someone has mentioned "locking yourself in." I say again, do not lock yourself in the cave. Lock the gate open - that is, lock the lock to the chain with the gate *not* locked so that no one can lock you in with that lock.

Yes, thats what I mean by "pretend."

 

[Zen1300]

First, I'm not a cave diver and still new to the sport of recreational diving, so I'm sure there will be holes in my thinking here.

I think it would be helpful if they issued some method of identifying the authorized divers. Something similar to what nightclubs do for people under/over 21. It would have to be conspicuous.

A camera system that monitored the entrance might help to detect unauthorized divers. If an unauthorized (non-certified) diver enters the cave, they may lose their privileges and be refused access to the Vortex.

If a gate system is absolutely mandatory, then I suspect the biggest issue will be getting out without hassle, and particularly so if the diver is in dire straits.

One thought might be to use RFID technology and access badges. Certified divers would receive an access card that transmits a signal that unlocks the gate when they're within a couple feet. The same would trigger unlocking on exiting. A manual override would exist, but could be connected to an alarm, similar to an emergency exit.

While probably technically feasible, it may not be the best option for fear of failure. There would be power issues to deal with, but not impossible.

 

[Zen1300]

The ideal way to dive the Vortex cave is to leave a guard at the gate while the caving team does its thing beyond the gate. We do this whenever possible. Be aware that the guard is deep too and this duty is usually a deco dive as well.
Rick

How often do you find someone who's willing to just sit there and guard the gate? This is an honest question - no sarcasm.

 

[ucfdiver]

How often do you find someone who's willing to just sit there and guard the gate? This is an honest question - no sarcasm.

there's like 50 caves within an hour or two of that location. No way I'd pay to dive vortex first off, but secondly, no way I would pay to sit there and stare at a gate.

 

[Cave Diver]

First, I'm not a cave diver and still new to the sport of recreational diving, so I'm sure there will be holes in my thinking here.

I think it would be helpful if they issued some method of identifying the authorized divers. Something similar to what nightclubs do for people under/over 21. It would have to be conspicuous.

A camera system that monitored the entrance might help to detect unauthorized divers. If an unauthorized (non-certified) diver enters the cave, they may lose their privileges and be refused access to the Vortex.

If a gate system is absolutely mandatory, then I suspect the biggest issue will be getting out without hassle, and particularly so if the diver is in dire straits.

One thought might be to use RFID technology and access badges. Certified divers would receive an access card that transmits a signal that unlocks the gate when they're within a couple feet. The same would trigger unlocking on exiting. A manual override would exist, but could be connected to an alarm, similar to an emergency exit.

While probably technically feasible, it may not be the best option for fear of failure. There would be power issues to deal with, but not impossible.

I realize that you're trying to help and your suggestions are well intentioned. However you have to understand that there is a certain percentage of people that will not be deterred now matter how many safeguards are put in place.

There will always be that subset that feels they are immune, exempt or that the rules dont apply to them. To that end they will find ways to circumvent obstacles placed in their way.

Additionally, there are just as many sites that have no sort of controlled access. There is nothing to stop them from jumping in a boat, heading up the river or spring run and entering a cave through a navigable waterway.

Some people simply can't be protected from themselves and trying to do so just makes things more difficult for the rest of. The best we can do in such case is to educate as many people as we can of the dangers and consequences that any level of diving has without the proper training and encourage them to seek knowledge through the proper channels.

 

[bigken462]

I say remove the grates, pipes, blocks, simulators and anything else in there not natural forming, make it a felony to damage, enscribe or take one pebble of stone and let us experience a place as nature intended - including natural selection.

Ken

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe the phrase "recreational cave diving" is an oxymoron.

Most of us are indeed recreational cave divers. Our dives are not ridiculously deep, far into the cave or long (a few hours max). Now the person who fills an entire pickup truck with gear for one 8 hour cave dive... he or she is not a recreational cave diver.

Unless your getting paid to dive, a la commercial - it's recreation....

I hope I didn't come off as sarcastic, and I truly didn't realize that there were recreational cave divers. I'm a recreational diver and after a few of those videos Cave Diver posted, I think I'll let you guys handle the caves.

This is a semantics issue--you aren't all using the same definition of the term. Words can have different meanings in different contexts, and "recreational" is one of them. In diving today, a lot of people use the word to mean the kind of diving that is taught in OW classes and done by 90% of the world's divers. That would mean no deco diving and no overhead environments. A common opposite of the term would be "technical," not "commercial."

If that is the definition being used, then the term "recreational cave diver" would indeed be an oxymoron, and there really is no such thing.

If by the term you mean the opposite of professional, then that is a different definition.

 

[Rick Murchison]

This is a semantics issue--...

And in diving we make it worse by frequently using the "recreational/technical" distinction rather than the (more proper) "recreational/work" distinction.

recreation... n. 1. refreshment in body or mind, as after work, by some form of play, amusement or relaxation 2. any form of play, amusement or relaxation used for this purpose, as games, sports or hobbies.

So, that's pretty clear... it's tempting to just say "if you pay to do it it's recreation and if you get paid then it isn't," but sometimes I get paid to do something that I'm really doing just for fun and the pay's just there, and sometimes I pay to do hard work... In this arena, when I go on a cave dive for fun, that's recreation. When the recovery divers working this mishap go into the water looking for Ben, that's *not* recreation, even though they're paying a lot to do it.
Bottom line... "This is a semantics issue" and, in diving, context dependent.
Rick

 

[Meister481]

First, I'm not a cave diver and still new to the sport of recreational diving, so I'm sure there will be holes in my thinking here.

I think it would be helpful if they issued some method of identifying the authorized divers. Something similar to what nightclubs do for people under/over 21. It would have to be conspicuous.

A camera system that monitored the entrance might help to detect unauthorized divers. If an unauthorized (non-certified) diver enters the cave, they may lose their privileges and be refused access to the Vortex.

If a gate system is absolutely mandatory, then I suspect the biggest issue will be getting out without hassle, and particularly so if the diver is in dire straits.

One thought might be to use RFID technology and access badges. Certified divers would receive an access card that transmits a signal that unlocks the gate when they're within a couple feet. The same would trigger unlocking on exiting. A manual override would exist, but could be connected to an alarm, similar to an emergency exit.

While probably technically feasible, it may not be the best option for fear of failure. There would be power issues to deal with, but not impossible.

The only way to stop uncertified divers from entering the cave is Dynamite. I'm not going to trust my life to a random access control system. The better thing to do is attempt education and after that all you can do is hope for the best. If someone wished to kill themselves in a cave there's really not a whole lot that will stop them.

Sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing. I see a bunch of OW divers posting about what the cave community should do, but without the experience of actually making these dives and learning the intricacies of the sport it's difficult to understand the logistics and considerations. There's a whole different mindset involved in cave diving and it truly is a sport that breeds self sufficiency and technical prowess as you continue diving.

I'm not saying that your suggestions aren't valid or appreciated. I'm just asking that you consider for a minute if you really know enough about the subject to be able to add to the conversation. If you start out with "I'm not a cave diver, never have seen a cave and never even read a book on it" you might rethink your position on posting something about the subject. I'm not trying to be a Richard, just trying to keep from answering the same questions every 3 pages, as well as saving you the embarrassment of asking the same question that has been answered 5 times this thread. Oh, and please read the entire thread before you post.

If this really interests you, I recommend you pick up a book or two and read up on it, my suggestions would be "Caverns Measureless to Man" and "The Taming of The Slough". Two great books about the history and technical challenges of cave diving. If you really get the bug after reading them, call one of the great instructors of the NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, GUE, to name a few. Only then can you safely experience the joys and wonders of cavern/cave diving.