Best Jacket Style BC with Tech Options

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Come on, the guy claims to be able to keep up with dolphins for "as long as he wishes", while riding a scooter and kicking big fins.

These are the kinds of "Volkerisms" that are just too good to let slide.

I too, can keep up with a swimming pod of dolphins for as long as (they want)!

Maybe that does sound a little more practical to say it your way:D But considering we all know bottlenose dolphins can swim in the vicinity of 30 mph if they want to, I don't think it likely anyone would think I meant I could do this.....they cruise at more like 5 mph, and that was what I was talking about....
And YOU can dive with me any time, and then see how many discrepancies you can find :D
 
Not too surprisingly, I disagree with your opinion here... While it is too ambitious to expect you to travel to S florida, or me to travel to Hawaii for speed and drag concept to be validated, there is an enormous volume of Jacket wearing divers in South Florida, that could take up this gauntlet you just tossed out, and dive with me, looking for inconsistancies between my "facts" and the observations they make.

So far, there is no one to support your uneducated, ignorant opinion on my findings :)

Not too surprisingly, I disagree with your definition of both fact and opinion here. :shakehead:

I am stating the FACT that without verification, you are just stating what you imagine to be your opinion. Since your speed has never been measured, you do not know for a fact that you can reach a speed of 5 mph, you do not know for a fact that 5 mph is 100% sustainable for you and since you have not made similar dives in every model vest BC you do not really know for a fact that it is not possible in a vest BC.

Getting back to something less "my dog is bigger", my scooters only cost me $700 each and I'm more than OK with only covering a little over a mile in an hour long dive. This small "splinter group" of a pod of spinner dolphins chose to let me cruise with them for a couple minutes, near the end of an hour long dive, so my speed was less than 1 mph, even with the strobes folded back on the camera held out in front ....

[c]
Spinners.jpg


FullSet.jpg
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Here is video of my least streamlined vest BC, from last week ... (larger video here)

[c][smv]1472458240_q8FnSzT[/smv][/c]
 
Volume and even frontal area hardly matters when it comes to streamlining. It's a matter of making the water flow as efficiently as possible,which is primarily done by optimizing shape. A well-fitting jacket without useless extras will make you a bit thicker around the torso, but you'll still have a nice tuna-like shape. A wing on your backside, on the other hand, breaks the streamlined shape by making you look like a mackarel with a donut on top. Moreover, the inefficient shape of the wing itself creates more turbulence and will give you a larger wet surface. All factors which will significantly increase drag.

Most of the jacket-style BCD critizism seems to come from people who obviously only have tried really crappy gear. BTW - most of my dives are with BP/W - hog style. It has it's strenghts, definitely, but - despite what certain ridiculous agencies claim - also some weaknesses.

I disagree completely, but all we have here are opinions. Until there is some solid scientific proof as in some sort of drag test done in a controlled environment we won't really know for sure. All we can do is speculate for now either way.

How about diving with no BC at all, do you think that would be more streamlined with less drag than either a jacket BC or BP/W?
 
It happens.



I hear ya.

I've been loathing my current BC and have been debating how to go back in time to the '80s to the one that I've liked the best...unfortunately, within the turnkey "Rec" (and "Tek-Style") rigs, the gimmicks continue to be weight integration (which steals away side pockets) and [/B]back inflation (which screws up surface floats while carrying heavy cameras).

Since I know better than to injure my back again, doubles are out, so what I'd personally be looking for is a Jacket that has good side pockets (which assumes that weight integration will be deleted) and then decide how feasible it would be to add a couple of D-rings myself...pretty much a repeat of what I did with that '80s gear back in the 90s. FWIW, if the BCD doesn't have all that great of a tank strap, the ScubaPro cinch strap can be a candidate for refitting too.


-hh


Not sure how back inflation can be worse on a surface float than a BP/W? Don't a lot of people regularly manage cameras using both solutions?
 
I find the question an oxymoron, but if forced to answer, perhaps the SeaQuest Black Diamond that looks a lot like the Aqualung above. But why not just stick to your tech gear?
 
Come on, the guy claims to be able to keep up with dolphins for "as long as he wishes", while riding a scooter and kicking big fins.

These are the kinds of "Volkerisms" that are just too good to let slide.

I too, can keep up with a swimming pod of dolphins for as long as (they want)!

I can only imagine why you would be in hot pursuit of a protected species...
 
...Until there is some solid scientific proof as in some sort of drag test done in a controlled environment we won't really know for sure. All we can do is speculate for now either way.

How about diving with no BC at all, do you think that would be more streamlined with less drag than either a jacket BC or BP/W?

Agreed; there simply is no objective test data. To postuate on a "No BC" configuration, one could argue that since it arguably would offer the smallest in cross sectional area, it should be better. However, in addition to cross-sectional area, there's also the drag coefficient in the calculation and it is entirely possible for a larger-but-more-streamlined shape to come out better overall. For example, consider this old US Divers design.

Not sure how back inflation can be worse on a surface float than a BP/W? Don't a lot of people regularly manage cameras using both solutions?


Yes, but that's a very short answer to a very long explanation.

Basically, it has to do with trim, and the fact that being trimmed out horizontally doesn't mean that you're also trimmed out vertically.

To undertand trim, one needs to understand that it is the management of the diver's Centriod locations for both his weight (CG) and his lift (CP). We normally just think about this in the horizontal orientation, but there is also one's vertical orientation.

In Engineering terms, whenever the centroids of weight (CG) and lift (CP) aren't in vertical allignment, the mismatch creates a "Moment Arm" based torque that tries to rotate the frame so the two are in vertical allignment. If this orientation isn't the rotation angle you want, you need to adjust trim to make it so...or you fight it, which burns air.

It is pretty straightforward & easy to do with a Wing for horizontal trim, due to the nature of the BC's design: the "rear" air bubble is an inherently more stable system for horizontal orientation, particularly as it pretty much automatically solves "roll" trim. However, when one rotates the diver by 90 degrees to now be vertical, its advantage now becomes a disadvantage, since what was "up" (and beneficial), it is now "out" to the side (to the right in the above illustrations), which serves to increase the moment arm length (too bad we're trying to make it be zero) more so than a Jacket design.

Sure, there's ways to fix this. Since our ultimate goal is zero out the moment arm, we just need to allign the diver's CG to be directly under his Lift (CP), just like we did in horizontal trim. For the vertical trim condition where the CP is behind the CG (eg, from a wing's bladder being behind the diver), you either need to move the CP forward, move the CG backwards, or combinations thereof. For example, changing to a more negative steel tank moves the CG backwards (thus, closer to the CP). Similarly, if one uses a drysuit and puts a bubble of air in it instead of in the Wing, that moves the CP forwards (closer to the CG).

Of course, for the warmwater diver in a tropical wetsuit who is diving with a dive resort's floaty AL80 tank, neither of these options are available for him to correct vertical trim. What can easily happen is that he runs out of 'adjustments' to make - - keep an eye out for divers who add a lead weight onto their tank strap, for example...and also for BP/W divers who fill their STA with lead.

Similarly, adding a negatively buoyant UW camera held in front of the diver is great for horizontal trim ("Heavy Stuff Down"), but it accentuates the potential 'face down' trim imbalance problem when the diver vertical and (often out of habit) is still holding the UW camera in front of him. Part of the solution can be as simple as "So don't hold it there": hold it in one hand, off to the side.

Which still leaves us all with one more way that one's vertical trim can be managed. Everything above simplistically assumes that the diver is a stiff, immobile board to keep the problem simple. However, what the diver can do is expend energy to tread water to counter whatever overturning moment is present ... and this motion obscures its presence.

So why isn't this seem to be a huge problem? Because while a diver can actively resist the torque by treading water .. he can do so for only so long until he fatigues out. For the generic common rec dives where the diver swims right back to a moored boat (or a good drift dive operator is able to follow flags well), the float times are sufficiently short such that the energy consumed isn't a big safety issue...but if you watch carefully the next time you're out on a boat, you'll probably notice some 'treaders' (watch from below water too, for constantly kicking fins on surface floating divers). Unfortunately, what this also means is that on long surface floats, this vertical trim issue very well can be fatal due to this requirement of a continued ongoing exertion.

Its an interesting subject; I hope this starts to explain the contributing factors involved.

- - -


In any case, I did finally get a chance to get down to my LDS to look at some Jacket BCDs for the OP as I had promised.

After looking at the toys, as well as a nice chat with the LCD Owner / Instructor, for ScubaPro equipment, I'd recommend consideration for the "Glide Pro".

I found that several of the old school "simple" BCs didn't have trim pockets on the shoulderblades, which I wasn't sure if that was of interest or not. Overall, the Glide Pro is fairly similar to (but also cheaper) than the Classic. My LDS's Owner/Instructor claims that it is what he currently teaches in and likes it ...for what that's worth. I figure that it looks promising enough to be worth a quick test dive in the LDS pool while carrying my UW camera system to see how it does. The trick for me is to make sure to have it rigged to a cheap AL80 instead of one of their steel tanks they do classes in.


-hh
 
Your explanation is a good one, but misses two potential "adjustments." The first is the diver's lungs, changing the midpoint of breathing can have a large effect on the CP. The same thing is true for a weightbelt, moving it for and aft makes the same sort of change, that's my problem with most BCDs, they inhibit the possible movement of the belt. Most of the fis-fuddle (for most non-dry suit divers) about trim can be replaced with a little knowledge and practice with just these two variables.
 
I disagree completely, but all we have here are opinions. Until there is some solid scientific proof as in some sort of drag test done in a controlled environment we won't really know for sure. All we can do is speculate for now either way.

How about diving with no BC at all, do you think that would be more streamlined with less drag than either a jacket BC or BP/W?
The work was done, years ago, by someone who occasionally drops by ScubaBoard and was published (if I remember correctly) in one of the IEEE "Oceans" volumes. Going from memory, the lowest drag was the FENZY and the highest drag was a WaterGil (ATPac) wing style, it was thought that the "flapping" of the deflated wing was what raised the drag. This project lead to the design of the ADVi, the progenitor of all the current BCDs and a very low drag design that has since been compromised by hanging on lots of doo-dads,
 
Agreed; there simply is no objective test data. To postuate on a "No BC" configuration, one could argue that since it arguably would offer the smallest in cross sectional area, it should be better. However, in addition to cross-sectional area, there's also the drag coefficient in the calculation and it is entirely possible for a larger-but-more-streamlined shape to come out better overall. For example, consider this old US Divers design.




Yes, but that's a very short answer to a very long explanation.

Basically, it has to do with trim, and the fact that being trimmed out horizontally doesn't mean that you're also trimmed out vertically.

To undertand trim, one needs to understand that it is the management of the diver's Centriod locations for both his weight (CG) and his lift (CP). We normally just think about this in the horizontal orientation, but there is also one's vertical orientation.

In Engineering terms, whenever the centroids of weight (CG) and lift (CP) aren't in vertical allignment, the mismatch creates a "Moment Arm" based torque that tries to rotate the frame so the two are in vertical allignment. If this orientation isn't the rotation angle you want, you need to adjust trim to make it so...or you fight it, which burns air.

It is pretty straightforward & easy to do with a Wing for horizontal trim, due to the nature of the BC's design: the "rear" air bubble is an inherently more stable system for horizontal orientation, particularly as it pretty much automatically solves "roll" trim. However, when one rotates the diver by 90 degrees to now be vertical, its advantage now becomes a disadvantage, since what was "up" (and beneficial), it is now "out" to the side (to the right in the above illustrations), which serves to increase the moment arm length (too bad we're trying to make it be zero) more so than a Jacket design.

Sure, there's ways to fix this. Since our ultimate goal is zero out the moment arm, we just need to allign the diver's CG to be directly under his Lift (CP), just like we did in horizontal trim. For the vertical trim condition where the CP is behind the CG (eg, from a wing's bladder being behind the diver), you either need to move the CP forward, move the CG backwards, or combinations thereof. For example, changing to a more negative steel tank moves the CG backwards (thus, closer to the CP). Similarly, if one uses a drysuit and puts a bubble of air in it instead of in the Wing, that moves the CP forwards (closer to the CG).

Of course, for the warmwater diver in a tropical wetsuit who is diving with a dive resort's floaty AL80 tank, neither of these options are available for him to correct vertical trim. What can easily happen is that he runs out of 'adjustments' to make - - keep an eye out for divers who add a lead weight onto their tank strap, for example...and also for BP/W divers who fill their STA with lead.

Similarly, adding a negatively buoyant UW camera held in front of the diver is great for horizontal trim ("Heavy Stuff Down"), but it accentuates the potential 'face down' trim imbalance problem when the diver vertical and (often out of habit) is still holding the UW camera in front of him. Part of the solution can be as simple as "So don't hold it there": hold it in one hand, off to the side.

Which still leaves us all with one more way that one's vertical trim can be managed. Everything above simplistically assumes that the diver is a stiff, immobile board to keep the problem simple. However, what the diver can do is expend energy to tread water to counter whatever overturning moment is present ... and this motion obscures its presence.

So why isn't this seem to be a huge problem? Because while a diver can actively resist the torque by treading water .. he can do so for only so long until he fatigues out. For the generic common rec dives where the diver swims right back to a moored boat (or a good drift dive operator is able to follow flags well), the float times are sufficiently short such that the energy consumed isn't a big safety issue...but if you watch carefully the next time you're out on a boat, you'll probably notice some 'treaders' (watch from below water too, for constantly kicking fins on surface floating divers). Unfortunately, what this also means is that on long surface floats, this vertical trim issue very well can be fatal due to this requirement of a continued ongoing exertion.

Its an interesting subject; I hope this starts to explain the contributing factors involved.

- - -


In any case, I did finally get a chance to get down to my LDS to look at some Jacket BCDs for the OP as I had promised.

After looking at the toys, as well as a nice chat with the LCD Owner / Instructor, for ScubaPro equipment, I'd recommend consideration for the "Glide Pro".

I found that several of the old school "simple" BCs didn't have trim pockets on the shoulderblades, which I wasn't sure if that was of interest or not. Overall, the Glide Pro is fairly similar to (but also cheaper) than the Classic. My LDS's Owner/Instructor claims that it is what he currently teaches in and likes it ...for what that's worth. I figure that it looks promising enough to be worth a quick test dive in the LDS pool while carrying my UW camera system to see how it does. The trick for me is to make sure to have it rigged to a cheap AL80 instead of one of their steel tanks they do classes in.


-hh
All good stuff.

There are also factors such as divers that are severly overweighted and thinking this is normal to the point that they will actually buy a BC based on this misinformation. As in steering away from rear inflate or BP/W systems because they have been face planted at the surface due to having an immense amount of air in the air cell just to stay afloat.
If they would have worked on the weighting issue and moved the remaining weight around such as switching to a steel tank and moving their weights around on their weightbelt to a more optimized location they could have had a much more pleasant experience both underwater and on the surface.
There should be a special class just on CG, overall weighting, weight breakidown and distribution, and exposure protection options and weighting in accordance with said options.
Too many instructors let all this go because they either don't know the information themselves, or don't have time to deal with it. However it is one of the most important concepts in diving a student really needs to know and not just leave it willy nilly.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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