Cozumel Incident 9/4/11

[Jax]

Really?

I've been on boats with as many as five groups. Five buddy pairs.

I've seen four groups. Two instructors w/two students each, and two buddy pairs.

I have seen more than one group many many many times.

Rubbish. Proper captains frown on their charges at all different depths. too much compication tracking and recovering everyone on different schedules.

Seriously?!?!?! Am I the only one that goes out on a boat that canvasses the divers, and then says, "Okay, max time is set at (50, 60, 70 minutes) for all divers . . . .?

 

[Diogenesdemar]

Let's put forth a scenario. Two groups of divers on one boat.

Group A is the one we know about. Planned depth: 320'. Time at 320' one to two minutes. Using the 8 minute listing on post #34, total planned dive time is around 48 minutes.

Group B is not well known but will I assume 2-4 divers. Planned depth 250'. Time at 250' one to two minutes. Total planned dive time probably less than Group A but will assume 50 minutes for extra outgassing.

Wow, this thread is now so far beyond the pale of reasonable speculation regarding this incident . . .

The one big assumption -- and one that I'm clearly not comfortable in making unless we hear something first-hand from the captain or one of the on-scene principals themselves -- being made here in all of this speculation from the captain's perspective is that this he was informed of the specific (i.e., planned depth profile) extraordinary dive plans of the one group, let alone anything out of the ordinary from his second group. I would like to hope that any sane, competent, boat captain would have refused to knowingly allow or participate in any part of this misadventure.

Does anyone yet know for certain whether this dive was occurring from a ScubaMau boat -- to my knowledge they now have only three boats themselves, and they are all realatively small "fast boats" that are in the 8-10 passenger range -- or was it a "charter"?

 

[Ron Lee]

Wow, this thread is now so far beyond the pale of reasonable speculation regarding this incident . . .

I am new to ScubaBoard but am under the impression that this thread allows discussion. I set forth a plausible/possible scenario and discussed what I would expect.

Betsy offered up other points that reinforce my position. I see no clear and present danger to me being left behind to get the seriously injured folks to medical care as quickly as possible. If others disagree..OK. If you are concerned, perhaps additional training or experience is in order such that you would not be scared about being left behind at a typical, frequently visited dive site.

I suspect that I may have to advise my dive shop on my next trip that they are free to leave me should some sort of serious risk to the life of another customer occur.

Let us put in another way. Guys, your wife/girlfriend suffered some sort of medical issue that is best attended to with no delay. It is considered life threatening. I am down with my buddy and we are not due up for thirty minutes. Do you want to wait for thirty minutes or get medical care? One more thing...I am in a position that I will not ascend immediately.

PS. I am responsible for my safety. I do not relinquish that to anyone. Maybe I do when I fly commercially. And ride an ADO bus, or take the ferry. But when I control my destiny, I do.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Let's put forth a scenario. Two groups of divers on one boat.

Group A is the one we know about. Planned depth: 320'. Time at 320' one to two minutes. Using the 8 minute listing on post #34, total planned dive time is around 48 minutes.

Group B is not well known but will I assume 2-4 divers. Planned depth 250'. Time at 250' one to two minutes. Total planned dive time probably less than Group A but will assume 50 minutes for extra outgassing.

Both enter at the same time. Group A takes about five minutes to get to 320'. Recognizing the still descending diver, getting to her and getting back to 320' takes five minutes. Gabi evaluates the situation when all three are together and within a minute they are ascending. They reach the surface about 16 minutes after entering the water.

Group B is unaware of the events of Group A. By the time Group A surfaces, Group B is around 80' as part of the outgassing (decompression) process. Three minutes later they hear a signal to ascend. They have around 30 minutes left to properly decompress/outgas. What do they do?

My opinion (which may get me banned from my normal dive shop) is that I am going to continue my profile. Why risk 5-7 people with DCS as opposed to three? I have no problem being left behind in normal Cozumel dive sites. Particularly if I am in the Palancar area (better site selection), I will be picked up by someone. The boat captain can radio to other boats my approximate location.

We hear of dive ops that send people up when they run low on air (normal time to ascend air levels). That may be risky for newer divers. I am confident that I have enough experience to watch for boats and take evasive action if need be.

So with benefit of hindsight, my view is still that it is far more important to get the three critically injured people to a chamber and that the risk to me is extremely low and manageable.

Would I sue the dive shop? No. This is my formal statement that I want them to tend to the critically injured first and take action to get me back to shore as a secondary priority.

However, I would not be offended if they bought me breakfast at Rock n Java the next day.

Given that neither of the dive profiles you suggest is possible on a single AL80, there's obviously no chance of you sueing. Your next of kin might, but not you.

 

[Zman96]

I dove Villa Blanca wall a few days after this incident and I wouldn't be real fond of trying to swim to shore from the wall at the surface in full gear, especially with a good current like we had that day. That being said if I came up and the captain had taken the stricken divers to shore I would have managed, and floated with my bouy and would have tried to angle towards shore. Their pier would be no more than a few minutes round trip and most captains would know how far the current would have taken me in that amount of time.

 

[Diogenesdemar]

I am new to ScubaBoard but am under the impression that this thread allows discussion. I set forth a plausible/possible scenario and discussed what I would expect.

Sorry, no offense intended . . . really. (I'm new too.) I'm all for discussion and what-if's, and think they make great training exercises when kept to the generic. This particular thread had been a bit irksome for me because it is personal, not generic, and because I have spent many days with a couple of the principals.

As to your question regarding my wife/girlfriend. I know what I would want if involved personally, but I'm not entiriely comfortable that it gives me the right to make those kind of decisions that might effect others (maybe stangers) that I do not know. (And, I really can't imagine a situation short of amputation, where I might have the kind of competency to "know" that thirty minutes was the difference between life and death.) That is why in these kinds of situations, the person ultimately making the decision should be a trained professional who is competent and who will make those decisions free of personal involvement. (And, in this particular case, I'm very sure that it was this captain that had more of a personal involvement with Opal and Gabi -- and he chose to remain on scene to pick up the other divers.)

 

[nauticab]

first of all, hi betsy! been a long time and i hope you are well.
i spoke to the other dm today and he confirmed the other group and a "normal" depth but not with specifics. tomorrow, if i see him again, i will see if he will give me more info...not for any opportunity for bashing anyone or the dive op, but for the sake of knowledge. i will also try to speak with the captain from that day.
with all the events happening at once, i am sure some level of panic took place. he was calling for help and opal jumped in the water.
it was a planned 1 tank dive. it common practice for boats to carry an additional tank or two on board. this detail is still kinda weird to me too. maybe it was just 2 tanks that he switched. this detail, while not so serious, isn't 100% clear.
betsy, the transpordador runs quite frequently now. today for example, i saw one coming in around 10:30am or so, left shortly thereafter, and another one returning in the area an hour or so later. i thought it weird but the schedules are diff from a few years ago. it is in la caletita, so quite close to the wall exit.
also, the time of the day was weird. it was after the normal 8:30-9 leave the dock time, but before the surface interval/2nd tank.
again, i will try to confirm more info tomorrow and post what i can.
geez, i knew this "other divers" and capt dilemma was interesting, but wasn't expecting another 13 pages!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Rubbish. Proper captains frown on their charges at all different depths. too much compication tracking and recovering everyone on different schedules.

They don't seem to have much of an issue doing that where I live. Depending on circumstances, they may ask you to put a time limit on your dive (usually 60 minutes) but otherwise, you're free to do the dive however you wish. I've often been on boats where one group was doing a dive to recreational depths while another may be doing a staged deco dive. Typically, they'll get the deco divers in first, due to their longer schedule.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[WSOPFAN]

I would like to hope that any sane, competent, boat captain would have refused to knowingly allow or participate in any part of this misadventure.

This is from post #425 page 43

they had done (as friends, together, with thousands of dives each-NOT with clients) very deep dives before without narcosis.

I know Gabi has been doing these for years and I am sure the other 2 would not go that deep without alot of practice. Do you really think NONE of the captains ever knew what they were doing? Sure they did......Would they stop them? It is slow season on Coz one of the worst in years hotels are at like 20%. You really think ANY dive shop employee is gonna give any kind of crooked opinion to their employer especially this time of year? They could care less......they do what they are told to have a job.......

 

[boulderjohn]

I would like to hope that any sane, competent, boat captain would have refused to knowingly allow or participate in any part of this misadventure.

Would it matter if one of the people doing the dive was the captain's employer?