Do you dive with a snorkel!??

[Hawkwood]

....
If a student chooses to have a snorkel or declines one, it's their business. The instructor is not a high priest, students are not acolytes, and no certifying agency has any monopoly on the truth. All of them have taken idiotic positions over the years. They represent the flawed collective vision of a few people.who themselves are uncertified as establishers of standards.

Students should consider what they are told and what they read, follow basic requirements, demonstrate appropriate skills, and use their brain to either incorporate the things they were taught during training into their own personal style, or reject them as the stupid conceits and ignorant opinions of the C card issuer, who typically (and evidently) may be filled with harebrained notions.
....

Goodness, if you could have posted this earlier, maybe we wouldn't be exceeding 170 posts, but I doubt it.

If I may be so bold as to add.....and not succumb to "peer pressure", one side or the other.

Why the heck to people get so twisted into a knot about something as simple as personal gear choice?

Bill

 

[cascas]

I do not dive with a snorkel. Except when ice diving. Or when snorkling. In all other cases it is a useless piece of equipment.

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[Rich Keller]

I do not dive with a snorkel. Except when ice diving. Or when snorkling. In all other cases it is a useless piece of equipment.

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What good is a snorkel under the ice?

 

[agilis]

Snorkels seen by students as "Magic Tubes"? I'm beginning to get a sense of the specific issues you must face. So much technology to explain to promitives.

The answer to your specific question regarding empty lungs and a snorkel filled with water depends on the circumstances. In every case an individual with any experience should know the snorkel is filled. You can easily confirm by the mandatory tiny sip and tongue extension taken before breathing. At the surface its easy to partially empty the tube, breath slowly around the remaining water and the blow the rest out. Every snorkler does this on auto pilot without thinking. Takes a few minutes to master the methodology.

In connection with parenthetical additions: When interjecting a marginal modification by bracketing as, "an (actually) competent", the orignal phrase determines the grammatical construct. For grammatical purposes pretend the bracketed word(s) is not there. Thus, "a competent" usually becomes "a (actually) competent...."

 

[Thalassamania]

Let's rewrite your post so that it makes sense:

Well the fact is they can't.

As I see it, snorkels should not be part of diving because many students are not taught well enough that they are comfortable so practicing it in the course of their diving. Students can get marginally familiar with the operation of the gear because that's all they are doing for two days. They can get familiar with how to put things on and together because those things make sense, and happen on the dry land. Snorkeling been reduced to just a checkbox by incompetent instructors, and is, in many places, becoming little more than a historical hangover, like swim tests and tables. While it may add to a diver's safety, it is far more cost effective to cut it from the course because of the time it takes and substitute shorter dives that feature the regulator in the students mouth deck to deck.

And that's precisely the point. Snorkeling is not part of diving, except when something goes seriously wrong, (or in terms of tradition), or as an optional (but only necessary in an emergency) part of a dive, and as we know there are many different ways to handle emergencies. There may be times when a snorkel is useful for diving, or fun to have for diving, but that's also true of scooters, and underwater tow sleds too. Those pieces require additional separate training, and so should snorkels. Training that used to be provided, but that for a number of reasons is no longer included.

Proper snorkel breathing is just not taught even though a snorkel can be both useful and serve as a piece of safety equipment. But it's turned into an optional piece of kit. Getting snorkels off masks makes the incompetent and poorly trained tourist divers that I see every day safer, because they keep the reg in, and don't choke. God only knows what they will do if they suffer from a regulator failure however.

People who free dive regularly have no problems with understanding how snorkel breathing works, and they might find a snorkel useful or fun. People who have not received such training suffer when they turn to something labeled a 'safety device', and instead get a mouthful of water when they are in need, even though that is something that they should have mastered with respect to regulator use.

So the average OW diver should stay away from it as part of diving, because they are either clearly too stupid and clumsy to learn to do it properly, or because their instructor is clearly too stupid and clumsy to teach snorkel use within the confines of the OW course, face it, most instructors themselves suck at free-diving. Really the reason is immaterial. Most divers, in general, don't know how to use snorkels properly, and they should not have them on their heads when they go diving unless they can use them effectively. So we should limit the use of a snorkel to those diving courses run by instructors who can use and effectively teach the skill and accept the fact that all other courses must teach the use of a regulator as the only option and accept the fact that a regulator failure or OOA situation is a problem that few, if any, of these divers will be able to solve. We should stop calling it safety equipment, because it is anything but safe except where there are competent students who have been trained by competent instructors, a collision of such infrequency as to be exceeding rare these days.

Now, isn't that more what you really meant?

And it actually is beginning to make sense to me now. One of us is basing his definition of "diving" by what poorly trained vacation divers do.

It's not regression to the mean, it's descent to the least common denominator.

First, this is missing the point. It is not when there is water in the snorkel, it is when water suddenly enters the snorkel. What is someone supposed to do with empty lungs and a snorkel full of water? Being experienced in pools and quarries simply does not prepare one for that, because it does not happen there, and most instructor teach snorkel use like it is a magic breathing tube; as basically scuba without a tank.

A simple counter-clockwise roll solve this issue well.

Second, what does an (actually) competent snorkeler have to do with anything being discussed? It is not people who think they are impervious to waves and the ocean that are the matter for concern in this thread, or in this forum. It is people who don't know that they are not in fact safe, because when they practiced and were taught their snorkeling skills it was in pools and quarries. SO they expect the snorkel to work one way, and they just get a mouthful of water.

If we follow that logic to its reasonable conclusion I'd have to say that most people should never do any sort of diving, ever.

People who wonder about their training, and whether they should wear a snorkel. Anyone who asks that question most definitely should not be using a snorkel when diving, because they are by definition not a competent snorkeler. And that's fine, since diving has nothing to do with it.

I'd change that to: "Anyone who asks that question most definitely should not be diving, because they are by definition not a competent diver. It is an essential skill, even for those who choose, often for good reason, to not carry a snorkel on a particular dive."

I go further and say snorkeling mixed in with diving is a relic of the past of diving, and for safety's sake on the divers side, and for education's sake on the free-diving side, the snorkel should be out of Open Water Dive training. First, we will get safer divers, and second we will get better free-divers, because the people teaching free-diving will be teaching free-diving, not tossing in two exercises about putting the mouth on a snorkel in the midst of dive training.

We have thrown all sorts of things out that are now coming back: buoyancy control, gas planning, etc. Throwing out snorkeling is not the solution, rather we should be retreading our instructor cadre to fix the problem, if, in fact, they are not capable to handling it. Diving is a set of progressively learned skills, Free diving skills form the core and sucking on a tank is just a little bit to be added to that core of skills, much the way that one progresses from a single engine and VFR environment to a multi-engine and IFR one.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Well the fact is they can't.

Snorkels are not part of diving as far as the diving goes, so it's use is not practiced in the course of diving in the course, even if it is taught. Students can get very familiar with the operation of the gear because that's all they are doing in the two days. They can get familiar with how to put things on and together because those things make sense, and happen on the dry land. Snorkeling is just a checkbox, and a historical hangover, like swim tests and tables. It is not necessary for safety, and is counter-productive to safety in practice.

And that's precisely the point. Snorkeling is not part of diving, except in terms of tradition, or as an optional (but never necessary) part of a dive. There may be times when a snorkel is useful for diving, or fun to have for diving, but that's also true of scooters, and underwater tow sleds too. Those pieces require additional separate training, and so should snorkels.

Proper snorkel breathing is just not taught (nor does it need to be), because a snorkel is not a piece of safety equipment. It's an optional piece of kit. Getting snorkels off masks makes everyday tourist divers safer, because they keep the reg in, and don't choke.

People who free dive regularly have no problems with understanding how snorkel breathing works, and they might find a snorkel useful or fun. People who don't will suffer when they turn to something labeled a 'safety device', and instead get a mouthful of water when they are in need.

So the average OW diver should stay away from it as part of diving, because it never is necessary, and its often counter productive. Or because it is not even close to being taught in OW course, because instructors themselves suck at free-diving. Really the reason is immaterial. Divers, in general, don't know how to use snorkels properly, so they should not have them on their heads when they go diving. So we should just take the snorkel out of the diving course, and stop calling it safety equipment, because it is anything but safe in many cases.

WOW! I need to take a course to learn how to get towed by a sled or to ride a scooter...I did not know that... I found the comment that a snorkel is NEVER necessary to be ridiculous as well. I've personally been in situations where I felt the snorkel was EXTREMELY useful and if the situation had not been resolved in a timely manner the snorkel would have been "necessary".

I swear, can dive training standards get ANY lower?

 

[mala]

if we are talking flying i would like free diving and snorkles to gliding-man against the elements.

rec diving is the single engine

tec is the multi -ifr.

there is no need to be able to fly a glider to pilot a 747.

 

[Thalassamania]

if we are talking flying i would like free diving and snorkles to gliding-man against the elements.

rec diving is the single engine

tec is the multi -ifr.

there is no need to be able to fly a glider to pilot a 747.

I'm happy to take your analogy. I suspect that Capt. Sullenberger, an experienced glider pilot, by the way, might differ with you on that. An entire plane full of still living passengers are rather thankful that he was highly proficient in knowing how to use "his snorkel."

 

[DaleC]

No I wouldn't equate it that way either.

Thal had it right and if one looks at older dive training manuals one see's a lot of emphasis on skin diving (the term I prefer). This teaches comfort in the water, comfort below the water, comfort with a mask and fins, kicking, dialing in buoyancy and it can also be used to teach ascents while breathing out etc... then one adds only a tank BCD and regulator. Many divers in the past ordered their "aqualungs" through the mail and with the addition of a watch, depth guage and maybe the USN tables were able to simply go diving. This was because they already had such a foundation of skills developed via skin diving. The additional skills of scuba are really just applied academic based; effects of pressure, decompression, safety etc... but the underlying skills and comfort are already present. The few exceptions being things like recovering a lost regulator doff and don etc...

Trying to cram all the first with all the second in a foreshortened course creates an incredible amount of task loading that results in many skills being inadequately learned/re-enforced.

Imagine someone taking a course to fly a 747 but having no clue as to lift, thrust, banking, how rudders or flaps work, approaches, landing etc... Some previous time in a glider certainly would provide a sensible foundation wherein those skills could be learned.

If someone said: for new divers unfamiliar with absolutely everything, a snorkel adds additional task loading to someone already extremely task loaded I would agree. That is not the same as saying snorkels do not belong in diving because many divers are not task loaded by a snorkel (or their other gear).

 

[mala]

Then that would leave one to wonder how much flying or diving you have actually done.

---------- Post Merged at 11:36 AM ----------


I suspect that Capt. Sullenberger, an experienced glider pilot, by the way, might differ with you on that. An entire plane full of still living passengers are rather thankful that he was highly proficient in knowing how to use "his snorkel."

20 yrs flying
10 years diving

i think that most commercial pilots could put a glider down.
i doubt that most glider pilots could put a heavy down.

---------- Post Merged at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:47 PM ----------

regs work under water and on the surface
snorkles only work on the surface

if you are going to war and have a gun you dont try to hit the bad guys with stones.