Check dives, private DMs, and local/shop policies

[redacted]

I don't know that I would call them unqualified. I think it is more a matter of inexperience and lack of confidence. Whether they choose to give it a go with a mentor, take another scuba course like boat diver or drift diver, or hire a private DM to help their confidence is pretty much up to them. I suspect the private DM in Cozumel is a better deal than some of the course options. In any event, lack of confidence can be just as problematic in causing bad things to happen as over confidence.

 

[halocline]

Depends on what part of America you're talking about.

You're right. Here in TX we only hire private DM's to carry our concealed spearguns.

Sorry, the whole post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek about the aussie reference and not meant to be taken literally. But since you west coast guys are practically as manly as the aussies, and don't need no-stinkin-Divemasters, maybe you should get together!

 

[tridacna]

Depends on what part of America you're talking about. On the west coast, divemasters work on the boat and don't even get in the water with you. Nobody's gonna hold your hand or take care of you here ... so you'd better have the chops to deal with whatever comes your way during the dive. It's also a good idea to select your dive buddy wisely ... because the two of you are all you've got once you begin the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob - ditto for the North East where the diving is even tougher. You get a briefing and that's it sailor boy. You better surface where you're supposed to because they sure as heck cannot come fetch you. You will have a pissed-off captain too.

 

[diverrex]

The idea that hiring a private DM somehow indicates that the diver isn't qualified to dive in the first place doesn't square away with the often given advice that newer divers should find dive mentors and dive with more experienced divers, or for that matter to continue to get additional training. Because when you hire a good DM that's what you are doing, diving with a more experienced diver and often getting more training in the process. I would agree that you shouldn't hire a private DM as a crutch for bad skills or thinking you can then do dives like Devils Throat that you are not qualified for.

An a good DM in a place you haven't dived is often very useful to finding critters that you wouldn't find on your own.

 

[TSandM]

I think you could posit two very different situations involving hiring a private DM.

The first goes back to the idea that you should really add one stress variable at a time to your diving. So you are a relatively new diver (and therefore all diving has an inherent degree of stress) and you are diving somewhere you have never been before, with conditions which may be different from where you trained. What you don't need is a buddy who is either a weak or novice diver himself, or a complete unknown to you, so you hedge your bets by obtaining an experienced buddy, who may be able to shoulder a bit more than the normal responsibility of a buddy. He may, for example, be able to manage most of the navigation, so that you can concentrate on your buoyancy and on staying together. I think is is a prudent behavior for an inexperienced diver, and an appropriate use of a DM.

The other situation is a diver whose skills are clearly insufficient for the proposed dive. The dive op suggests a private DM because they are worried that an accident or incident might occur, if this person is permitted to do their dives with a random or equally inexperienced/unskilled buddy. The onus on the DM is to try to prevent an accident that is already known to be high-risk. This is not good judgment on the part of the diver, the dive op, or the DM involved, but I suspect it happens. In this case, if the information we have is correct, the diver was judged to require that kind of assistance and refused it, and still went diving. If that is true, the outcome shouldn't surprise anybody.

 

[mdb]

I equate diving with a private DM akin to taking a private ski lesson. You get a tour from someone who knows the area and, hopefully, learn something at the same time.

 

[xyrandomyx]

I think you could posit two very different situations involving hiring a private DM.

The first goes back to the idea that you should really add one stress variable at a time to your diving. So you are a relatively new diver (and therefore all diving has an inherent degree of stress) and you are diving somewhere you have never been before, with conditions which may be different from where you trained. What you don't need is a buddy who is either a weak or novice diver himself, or a complete unknown to you, so you hedge your bets by obtaining an experienced buddy, who may be able to shoulder a bit more than the normal responsibility of a buddy. He may, for example, be able to manage most of the navigation, so that you can concentrate on your buoyancy and on staying together. I think is is a prudent behavior for an inexperienced diver, and an appropriate use of a DM.

The other situation is a diver whose skills are clearly insufficient for the proposed dive. The dive op suggests a private DM because they are worried that an accident or incident might occur, if this person is permitted to do their dives with a random or equally inexperienced/unskilled buddy. The onus on the DM is to try to prevent an accident that is already known to be high-risk. This is not good judgment on the part of the diver, the dive op, or the DM involved, but I suspect it happens. In this case, if the information we have is correct, the diver was judged to require that kind of assistance and refused it, and still went diving. If that is true, the outcome shouldn't surprise anybody.

Ah. The first situation you describe is one where I could see myself hiring a private DM. It sounds quite reasonable. The second situation is more the one I had in mind when I said I'd reservations about hiring a private DM if I was told my skills weren't matched with a dive.

---------- Post added January 18th, 2013 at 08:00 PM ----------

The idea that hiring a private DM somehow indicates that the diver isn't qualified to dive in the first place doesn't square away with the often given advice that newer divers should find dive mentors and dive with more experienced divers, or for that matter to continue to get additional training. Because when you hire a good DM that's what you are doing, diving with a more experienced diver and often getting more training in the process. I would agree that you shouldn't hire a private DM as a crutch for bad skills or thinking you can then do dives like Devils Throat that you are not qualified for.

An a good DM in a place you haven't dived is often very useful to finding critters that you wouldn't find on your own.

OK, yes. To my mind, diving with someone more experienced is a good idea, but so is picking sites/ dives that are matched to your own experience level. I perhaps got the wrong impression about the reasons for hiring a private DM. I was imagining a situation where a dive op told me I'd need a private DM because in their opinion my skills were in no way up to standard for the planned dive.

I'm in no way opposed to hiring DMs. Most of the dives I've been on have been guided. I'm quite happy to let someone handle the finer details of navigation (finding the best spots and critters) and so on. And in recent months, I've been diving almost exclusively with private DMs -- rent-a-buddy, 'cos my regular buddy decided that our cold waters are just not his thing. I don't like the idea, though, of feeling as though an accident or incident would be a likely outcome if the DM wasn't there to help me out.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Ah. The first situation you describe is one where I could see myself hiring a private DM. It sounds quite reasonable. The second situation is more the one I had in mind when I said I'd reservations about hiring a private DM if I was told my skills weren't matched with a dive.

The person who travels to a holiday destination and hears that he needs a private DM (because, in TS&M's scenario, the dive op knows he is an accident waiting to happen) is not the type of conscientious person who values safety above all that you are. Conscientious types would probably research their intended destination and decide not to go there in the first place. I think this is what I was getting at in a previous reply.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think you could posit two very different situations involving hiring a private DM.

The first goes back to the idea that you should really add one stress variable at a time to your diving. So you are a relatively new diver (and therefore all diving has an inherent degree of stress) and you are diving somewhere you have never been before, with conditions which may be different from where you trained. What you don't need is a buddy who is either a weak or novice diver himself, or a complete unknown to you, so you hedge your bets by obtaining an experienced buddy, who may be able to shoulder a bit more than the normal responsibility of a buddy. He may, for example, be able to manage most of the navigation, so that you can concentrate on your buoyancy and on staying together. I think is is a prudent behavior for an inexperienced diver, and an appropriate use of a DM.

There may also be the "don't go in there" factor to consider ... someone familiar with the site and conditions will know enough to recognize the onset of conditions that might turn stressful and be able to steer you away from it. When I was new ... in Belize on my first tropical dive trip ... I wandered too close to a break in the reef and almost got sucked through into the open ocean side. Not recognizing what was happening, I was completely unaware I was putting myself into a potentially bad situation until I noticed the dive guide swimming furiously in my direction, frantically signalling me to turn back. Later, he told me that had I gone through that gap, they would have had a hard time coming to get me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[xyrandomyx]

The problem I see in a lot of places ... including on my one trip to Cozumel ... is that a lot of people get taken to dive sites that are inappropriate for their experience level. A lot of it is due to the fact that people go to these places to experience "bucket list" dives ... like Devil's Throat ... and lack either the skill or self-confidence to deal with any less-than-ideal circumstance that may arise. Since most of the time people can go through a dive without experiencing a problem, there's a tendency to rationalize that it's alright. But on those rare occasions when something pushes the diver beyond their capacity to cope with it, the results can be ... and often are ... tragic.

But I can say that when I was in Cozumel, and doing some of the "bucket list" sites ... I saw people down there who, just looking at them, had no business being there.

And a DM ... private or otherwise ... can only do so much. You're supposed to be able to handle routine problems on a dive without assistance. If you can't ... or even if you're unsure of your ability to do so ... you shouldn't be doing that dive. This is one reason why I think checkout dives are a good idea ... because otherwise the dive guide has no real way of knowing whether or not you've got the chops to deal with conditions that you might have to deal with on a given dive. And to a trained eye, you can get a pretty good idea one way or the other simply by watching someone in the water on a less challenging dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

OK. Another question: to what degree is customer demand the cause of divers being taken to sites that are well beyond their skills/ experience?


I ask for this reason: when I was very new, I most definitely tended towards trusting the judgement of the DM/ instructor/ dive op a bit too much. On the other hand, I really didn't feel any need to do the 'bucket list' sites. I would have been quite happy with an op taking me to an 'easy' site if they thought that was best. I was (and I still am to a large extent) just happy to be in the water.


Am I the exception? Or are there dive ops (some, at least) who take customers to inappropriate sites because of /perceived/ demand for that, rather than actual demand? Having never worked in the dive industry, I have no idea -- I can only answer for my own personal preferences.