So, just who is George Irvine III?????

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

I don't see this in recreational dives...GUE divers will often dive with non-GUE's....but when a dive approaches the level of challenge that the GUE Diver considers "challenging" to themselves, or even at an exploration level, I think many correctly decide that if it is going to "push them", that they should be with "their team".
I post as a DIR that knows lots of GUE's....and that is how I choose....

Seems kinda the way we all are. I'm not GUE, but have been known to shoe horn my style into a GUE team for straight forward dives.
When I 'm pushing my comfort level, I also want a buddy that I both know and trust.

As a non-GUE person responding to who is GI the III. Well he is a diver that accomplished a great many things in diving, and then ruined it all by opening his mouth and sprouting arrogance.

 

[Slamfire]

Seattle GUE divers tend to do MT6 from Cove 1 on a scooter.

To add to the irony, we also commented about the line for scooter divers from Cove 1 and that such shore dive would only be possible on scooters and the risk implications of having a scooter malfunction. We all knew it was probably GUE divers in the AJ, the guy was just making a hyperbole to state a point of view.

I don't see this in recreational dives...GUE divers will often dive with non-GUE's....but when a dive approaches the level of challenge that the GUE Diver considers "challenging" to themselves, or even at an exploration level, I think many correctly decide that if it is going to "push them", that they should be with "their team".
I post as a DIR that knows lots of GUE's....and that is how I choose....

I concur about recreational dives. However, I was thinking of a real case when referring to laying line in virgin caves. I'll be vague because I do not want to put anybody on the spot since I think their project and their results are very commendable and they should definitely keep on at it. I do not wish them to be judged or harassed about doctrinal issues. That said this was a very mixed team in more than one aspect. And in spite of DIR backgrounds, this was not a Wakulla like exploration. You have to be practical. Sometimes DIR rules go against practicality. If you are too orthodox at interpreting Rules 1, 2, 5 and 6 you can end up seriously limiting your diving opportunities.

 

[rjack321]

I've just heard comments from a number of divers that have an aversion to it. My usual dive buddy for example has been encouraged to take fundies and adopt a DIR rig as part of some volunteer work he's been doing, (don't want to really go too into details about his personal business here). Basically, he's dead set against it. I don't know why exactly, but he emphatically does not like the DIR philosophy. A dive shop owner out on the peninsula asked me if I was DIR upon seeing my BPW and harness. When I told him I wasn't he proceeded to rip on DIR for awhile. Another diver I met told me about going on a dive with DIR divers and mentioned incredulously how they spent 10 minutes going over each others rigs for a shore dive.

There's more than that too, and like I said earlier, I personally don't have a problem with DIR, but it seems obvious that they do have a perception problem.

Human beings are inherently "tribal". I really doubt there was anything unusual going on here. But when a shop owner is feeling threatened by another tribe then one of the common tactics is to slag that other tribe off as incompetent, pretentious, arrogant, or any number of other negative adjectives. It would be pretty unusual for a shop to say, "Oh that other store, my competitors, they are selling great stuff I can't carry and awesome divers to boot." These kinds of things go on all the time and they have almost nothing to do with the really nice people behind the tribal affiliation, and everything to do with either a few bad apples or just human nature.

I concur about recreational dives. However, I was thinking of a real case when referring to laying line in virgin caves. I'll be vague because I do not want to put anybody on the spot since I think their project and their results are very commendable and they should definitely keep on at it. I do not wish them to be judged or harassed about doctrinal issues. That said this was a very mixed team in more than one aspect. And in spite of DIR backgrounds, this was not a Wakulla like exploration. You have to be practical. Sometimes DIR rules go against practicality. If you are too orthodox at interpreting Rules 1, 2, 5 and 6 you can end up seriously limiting your diving opportunities.

Thank you.
I had a long winded follow-up but honestly it wasn't worth going into in this thread. If anyone wants to discuss the "practicality" of GUE/DIR diving in seriously remote places they can start a thread in the T2T subforum.

 

[TSandM]

I dunno . . . the only time I laid line in a virgin cave, it was me (Full Cave from NACD) with Ela Bertoni (instructor for UTD). We both seemed pretty happy with one another's skills and qualifications.

There is, honestly, some legitimacy in the criticism that GUE divers only dive Cove 2. For one thing, this type of diving DOES attract someone whose biggest joy in diving is polishing skills. I don't understand that, myself, because although I love to practice and I love being able to accomplish things seamlessly, that isn't why I dive. But I have learned that for some people, it is -- and there is nothing more praiseworthy in my desire to look at fish and take pictures, than there is in someone else's desire to do the absolute perfect valve drill in midwater. This is a recreational activity, and whatever someone does safely and has fun doing is completely OK.

The other thing about Cove 2 is that, if you are a really avid diver, you are going to end up diving there a lot, simply because of the tides and currents. It is one of the three or maybe four places I know that you can dive any day, any time -- and depending on where you live and what is closest, you are going to end up with a lot of dives in a couple of those benign sites. Our Wednesday GUE Tweak dives are held at Cove 2 -- because we can dive there ANY Wednesday afternoon and have fun. You can't say that about the Junkyard, or the Pipeline, or any number of other local dive sites. So there we are, at Cove 2 again . . . But if you look at the NWUE or GUE-Seattle FB pages, you'll see a lot of diving going on in Lake Washington and any number of other sites. So yeah, we dive Cove 2 a lot. But we take the experience from there and dive elsewhere, too.

 

[daniel f aleman]

But when a shop owner is feeling threatened by another tribe then one of the common tactics is to slag that other tribe off as incompetent, pretentious, arrogant, or any number of other negative adjectives.

Yeah, like the attitude you get from the staff when you walk into Extreme Exposure.

George Irvine was a great cave diver, really great. Most importantly, he advanced the understanding of deco issues for exploratory cave diving (though others around the world were doing the same). But his personality led him to be sometimes dangerous to others out of the water. Though he recognized the lack of capable instruction of those North Florida inbred-loser cave instructors, he, like many of you on this board who spout instruction, had no innate gift for the teaching of others (as Jablonski has). And George would rightfully despise you DIR pretenders.

 

[TSandM]

What's a DIR pretender? Anybody who isn't doing seven hour dives at 300 feet?

I took my training through Jarrod's agency, and I dive the way I was taught. Most of my diving is pure recreational and often shallow, because I like light in which to take pictures. Does that make me a pretender?

 

[danvolker]

Yeah, like the attitude you get from the staff when you walk into Extreme Exposure.

George Irvine was a great cave diver, really great. Most importantly, he advanced the understanding of deco issues for exploratory cave diving (though others around the world were doing the same). But his personality led him to be sometimes dangerous to others out of the water. Though he recognized the lack of capable instruction of those North Florida inbred-loser cave instructors, he, like many of you on this board who spout instruction, had no innate gift for the teaching of others (as Jablonski has). And George would rightfully despise you DIR pretenders.

Daniel,
George mentored me and many others..In fact, in the WKPP in the 90's, mentoring was the only way the DIR ideas and skills were developed for WKPP members. George was actually very good at showing skills and had an amazing ability to explain ANYTHING dive related, down to the smallest detail if you wanted it.
I don't know if George ever was even exposed to a DIR pretender up to around 2004 or so... so I am not sure how he would have reacted. More than likely, he would have created a conversation that got to the heart of the issue, explained what he thought was important, and that was usually very effective.
The more surprising thing was what would happen when George would walk into a dive shop he had not been in before. As you know, many Dive Shop staff/owners will get insecure and verbally combative if they think a new customer that has walked in is of a very different tech or gear perspective than they are...they get VERY DEFENSIVE. George was amazing at how he would disarm this, by knowing their gear, and their likes in diving, and almost instantly getting to a middle ground....

The only time I ever saw an "in-person" encounter with George, where he was not "nice" to a person, was on Jim Mimms boat one time....a diver onboard told George and I he was planning on doing a personal "deep air BEST" to 500 feet, during our Surface interval ( after our dive on the RB Johnson).
George stared at him for a moment, then said something like...Great, I'm talking to a dead man... and he conveyed he thought the guy was a moron.
The wanna-be deep diver in question, was a very recent tech diver, with maybe a year of diving experience. George told the Captain, Mimms, that this guy was not going to get a 500 foot drop during our interval, and that the next time he was on Mimms boat, we would not be.....We did a lot of Trips with Mimms back then, so Jim agreed.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Dan, we met years ago briefly. George did well by you, and you are known as a good diver. George is George.

Lynne, get out there and learn to do something that can't be taught by any agency.

...out.

 

[Hockeynut]

What's a DIR pretender?

It's like a guy who buys a Harley but still takes baths.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, we met years ago briefly. George did well by you, and you are known as a good diver. George is George.

Lynne, get out there and learn to do something that can't be taught by any agency.

...out.

Well, nice to meet you again then!
Maybe you will visit Palm Beach some time and you can dive with us.