Collapse of the "Buddy System"

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Done it a couple times but not in strong currents.

Have only done a couple drift dives in your territory. Current was not that strong. It was going South. Viz was about 40 ft. We had no problem keeping up with the float since we never saw it so we did not try. Buddy and I splashed last. He had a brief camera issue. By time he was ready everybody was gone. So we did a nice drift with the current and shot an SMB I was carrying at the end. Very pleasant dive.

Besides regardless of which side of the relationship I am on I never thought it was the customers job to make the employee happy.:coffee:

That is a much easier way to dive. Drift along for a half a mile or so, swim where ever you want, pull no dive flag (which avoids a lot of problems) and then send an SMB up from depth and ascend under it.

People do that in my local area, but it is illegal (in Florida anyway). The state law requires that a diver stay within 300 feet of a dive flag. Presumably the boat is flying one, but there is no way the boat is going to maintain a 300 ft distance from all the divers who are spread out over a wide area after drifting for 45 minutes.

I have seen someone get killed by a boat while diving, I have seen many close calls, I have been lost from the boat for extended periods of time floating on the surface, so in general, I have learned (the hard way) to pull a float when drift diving in Florida. I do it because I believe it is safer and worth the inconvenience. I'm not so worried about compliance with the Florida Statute.

The best solution is to always have someone else pull the float.

---------- Post added October 5th, 2014 at 11:09 AM ----------

This is the typical taught protocol in the training I've received in regard to guiding, it's applied to a group of people on a journey and it's the sensible approach and it really is just falling back to the strength of a group, be it two or ten, is that the strength of a group is based upon the weakest link and the pace is set to the weakest link so that you don't end up losing them. Common sense when you think about it.

.

You are correct that the pace of the group is logically limited by the weakest person. However, that does not necessarily mean that they should LEAD the group.

The group needs to figure out a way to move at a pace that keeps people together. That may require the fastest/ strongest person (or one being towed by a float) to occasionally stop and wait for everyone to catch up, but it also may require that the weakest/slowest person may need to kick it into high gear from time to time to KEEP UP. Especially if traversing an open sandy area that has no structure to hook off to.

In any regard, it is impractical to assume that a person who is burdened by pulling a float (presumably the strong person) will be physically able to follow a slower unburdened diver who suddenly decides to "lead" the group across the current. It just isn't gonna happen. The float puller is the leader and needs to be followed.
 
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One of the scenarios that I do not see practiced is what I call the "Band Drill". That is when you and your group are going say north in so so viz and another group swims thrugh your group going say east. This requires both dodging bodies, often intent only on following that instructor, and keeping track of your buddy who may have dodged the other way. I have seen numerous times where this has resulted in buddy separation. Often as one diver happily follows along the wrong group. If that other group is a class they are focused on following the instructor and will not slow down for fear of being separated.

This happened in my OW class, though I don't think it was intentional. Our checkout dives were happening in the same spot as a class from another dive shop. One of our DMs said it was likely a navigation class based on what they were talking about. For our class, there were enough DMs to each take a pair of students, so on our first dive we did some underwater skills for the instructor, then did a quick circle around the dive site with our buddy/DM where we basically just follow ropes around. My buddy and I were the first to head out, side by side, with our DM leading. Well about half-way to our destination a trio of divers, two side by side and one trailing behind, come rushing into view (15' vis) and right across our path. One of the guys in front had his mask glued to his compass, the other two were watching the first guy and didn't seem to notice us at all. We were OW students swimming with the current and, like new skaters on ice, we had no idea how to stop.

My buddy managed to get herself up, over and of the way, but having very little buoyancy control to begin with I just grabbed the rope to pull myself down to below the other divers. Well that was a mistake, in pulling myself to the ground I had created a gigantic cloud of silt; so our 15' vis was now 0. Luckily the current was there to take my silt cloud away. After a moment of getting myself off the bottom and neutral(ish) again I wait for the silt cloud to move away and look around. Look to the left, I saw my buddy's bright yellow mask already looking my direction. Gave her a wave, saw her look at me and wave back. Looked to the right, our DM was hovering a short distance away watching us. It certainly wasn't the most elegant solution but it was nice to know that we were all paying enough attention to avoid a collision and to know roughly where we all were so we weren't spending a whole lot of time looking for each other.
 
I personally have no "problem" with the buddy system, but I have issues with the refusal to promote self-sufficiency/redundancy for basic open water divers. To instead rely upon the perfect execution of the buddy team to provide safety (via the redundancy of a buddy's air supply) seems impractical.

It sounds to me that your ACTIONS reveal a similar feeling. You confirm that great buoyancy control and situational awareness are skills necessary to perform as a good buddy team in your waters, yet you REFUSE to believe that ANY OW certified divers have these skills until they have completed MORE DIVES after their certification class.

With Lynn (initially) saying she will use a pony bottle if she doesn't know a dive buddy and you refusing to allow certified divers into your AOW class (until their deficiencies have been remediated), how do you continue to advocate that the buddy system (as taught in the current recreational setting) is robust enough to avoid the option of teaching a redundant gas supply in an initial class?

And it should be obvious, but I will state it anyway. I'm not saying that a redundant system should supplant the teaching of the buddy system, but rather enhance the divers safety, so they can be safer in the typically "weak" buddy teams we see so often.

To be extremely concise, it is much easier to teach someone how to use a pony bottle than provide them sufficient dives and training to ensure that all the skills necessary for good buddy diving are acquired.

So maybe you both feel that teaching and learning the buddy system is not rocket surgery, but (at the very least) your actions both seem to confirm your doubts about the ability of recently certified divers to execute buddy diving properly.

... but I never said a word about redundancy, so I don't understand how you jumped to those conclusions.

Redundancy and good buddy skills are NOT mutually exclusive. The mindset of self-sufficiency and that of being a good buddy are not mutually exclusive ... in fact, at their core they have a lot of overlap. Those are tools ... to be learned, developed, and applied as circumstances and personal choices dictate.

Quite a few of my students choose to carry a pony. I carry one when I solo dive, but rarely when diving with a buddy, as a good buddy reduces the need for air redundancy below what I consider acceptable risk. What I will NOT allow in my class is the development of an attitude that carrying a pony bottle makes good buddy skills unnecessary, as it only addresses one of the potential reasons why one might choose to dive with a buddy.

Skills development is a continuum. One of the great fallacies of dive instruction is the notion of "mastery" ... what exactly is that term supposed to mean? It's for certain that one cannot "master" any skills during an Open Water course ... the purpose of the class isn't to teach you the skills so much as it is to teach you how to learn them. Learning comes from repetition and practical application ... and that takes dives. Granted, for some it takes more dives than for others. But I have yet to meet the person who can "master" anything much beyond underwater survival in an Open Water class ... and that's regardless of the instructor or agency involved.

Furthermore, in your focus on only one highlighted comment, rather than the entirety of what I said, you misrepresented ... as you often do ... what I said. Please read the sentence directly following what you highlighted ... I'll quote it for you, in fact ...

But it does NOT take anything like exceptional skills ... buddy diving is more about mindset and understanding the framework in which a buddy team dives successfully than it is about physical skills. It only requires that you don't have to struggle to maintain your buoyancy control ... which frees up enough mental bandwidth for you to begin to learn about and deal with task loading.

... so no ... I did NOT say that it takes, as you claim I said, "great buoyancy control" ... in fact I stated quite the opposite. All it takes is sufficient buoyancy control to allow you to concentrate on other things ... which is when you're able to free up enough mental bandwidth to start working on awareness skills. The major reason why the buddy system breaks down is because people ... particularly, but not exclusively new divers ... neglect to develop awareness skills. The problem with viewing "self-sufficiency" as a reasonable alternative to buddy diving is that it also requires those same awareness skills, but applied in a different manner.

I'm actually quite in favor of divers developing self-sufficiency skills. What alarms me sometimes is all this promotion of that path as an alternative to development as a dive buddy ... because it often points to a person who is either too lazy to develop their skills adequately, or someone who concludes that carrying a pony bottle somehow makes them "self-sufficient". Nothing could be further from the truth. Self-sufficiency ... like buddy diving ... is more about your mental approach to the dive. And the parallels in mindset between the two systems have more in common than most self-sufficiency promoters realize. Either way, diving's more about making good decisions than it is about what gear you're carrying or who you're diving with.

That leads, I believe, to why you so frequently misunderstand what I post in these threads. I'm not about promoting one style of diving over another ... or promoting the use of a particular type of equipment. Those are just tools, and tool selection is often highly personal and usually determined by the environment in which you dive. What I'm about is training divers how to make good choices by evaluating risks, making realistic assessments about what they can and can't do about them, and putting some thought into how and with whom they're going to dive. It has a great deal to do with where I predominantly dive, and the fact that I'm training people to dive "here". We don't do group dives. We don't follow guides. We don't rely on other people to make our decisions for us. That, in itself, implies self-sufficiency. But it has nothing at all to do with diving with a buddy, or developing good buddy skills.

If you want to be self-sufficient, that's great. If you want to dive solo, that's OK too. But if you're going to commit to diving with another person, then I think it's imperative that you take that commitment seriously enough to understand what it means, and develop the skills needed to take the commitment seriously.

... and that is the foundation upon which I base my classes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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I'm actually quite in favor of divers developing self-sufficiency skills. What alarms me sometimes is all this promotion of that path as an alternative to development as a dive buddy ... because it often points to a person who is either too lazy to develop their skills adequately, or someone who concludes that carrying a pony bottle somehow makes them "self-sufficient". Nothing could be further from the truth. Self-sufficiency ...

If you want to be self-sufficient, that's great. If you want to dive solo, that's OK too. But if you're going to commit to diving with another person, then I think it's imperative that you take that commitment seriously enough to understand what it means, and develop the skills needed to take the commitment seriously.

.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I went out of my way to say that redundant air supply does not replace the buddy system, perhaps you missed that. The OP specifically brings up this topic (of redundancy) in the initial post, it is not me interjecting some irrelevant topic into the discussion.


I also carefully avoided the topic of solo diving.

With respect to buoyancy control: I think you also referred to being able to control your buoyancy without any "conscious effort" or something along those lines. Forgive me if I paraphrase that into "great buoyancy control"

Now you use the term "serious commitment" to describe what it takes to develop a good buddy system. I totally agree, that has been my main point all along. It seems we agree that it is very tough to accomplish this within the constraints of a typical introductory recreational dive class.

Do we hope and pray the Ow student will progress after certification to truly develop the buddy skills to ensure competence to always stay close so as to provide air in an instant, or do we look for an inexpensive equipment solution to enhance their safety? It is not so different than the use of an octopus.

Years ago they were not used. A well trained team can share a single second stage without much trouble (especially in an open water, recreational type of setting) . Now we view that as radical and demand that additional equipment (an octo) be carried to provide an acceptable level of safety.

Is adding a pony bottle to the basic gear set, so different?
 
On the issue of the similarity of self-sufficiency and competent buddy practices, I recall many years ago when I was mulling over the risks of riding a horse vs. a 3 or 4-wheeler (ATV).

When you ride a horse, in addition to operating knowledge and skill, you must also contend with the fact there is another mind at work in your activity. A horse can startle and abruptly stop, not only upon perceiving a true hazard (e.g.: avoid stepping on a rattlesnake), but also upon misinterpreting a harmless stimulus (thinking there's a hazard when there is not). An ATV will not startle. There are big differences between riding a horse vs. an ATV, but the horse having a mind is one of them.

Similarly, in solo diving, you the diver have one mind to contend with; yours. One personality, one set of strengths and weaknesses, one personal agenda (e.g.: fin along fast or slow, macro or big stuff, photo or look at, deep or shallow, etc...), and you ought to have an intuitive understanding of yourself. You won't get separated from yourself (at least while alive).

In buddy diving, you have another mind to contend with, with its own personality, quirks, weaknesses, preferences and customary practices.

I'm not pushing solo diving as better or worse than buddy diving, and I see the point that there is a methodical mindset to properly doing either with some similarity. But since comparison has come up, that issue of one mind vs. two is very important.

Richard.
 
DrRich2, how did you get so reasonable? Thanks for your thoughtful and spot on posts.
 
I do it because I believe it is safer

I agree completely that it is safer. As noted we got separated from the flag as soon as we went in. One side effect of this dive which ended bobbing in 4-5 ft waves waiting for the boat to come was that as soon as I got home I bought a much bigger SMB which hopefully every boat, friend and foe alike, could esaily see over 4-5 ft waves. Don't do drift dives in my area but it is possible to have to do an open water assent.
 
For the buddy system to work, you have to set expectations and a dive plan before getting into the water. "Just follow me" isn't a dive plan. How deep, how long, when to turn back, what you're going to do, and what happens if we get separated?

Playing wingman is good for your buddy if he gets in a jam, but what about you? High and behind and he'll be out of sight before he knows you're not there.
 
After taking in all the posts on this topic, it sounds like expectation management on the surface is key to a good buddy dive under the water.

When getting my OW the training always had us paired up. It was an expectation that we work out our plan and run it by the instructor around dive two vs diving a pre-made plan. She gave us maps to review the dive profile, set parameters, safety aspects of the area, but we were responsible for what we were going to do within the parameters and briefed our plan back to her. Then a post dive check. I think this set us up for success when followed.

I have one dive where i had a buddy that i was constantly searching for. This put me way outside my comfort level. I was the less experienced diver, and following the contour of the terrain. He was sticking to a level profile above me. We hadn't worked that part out pre-dive. That was really annoying and it took some more expectation management to work out where we would be. Our next dive was awesome. There was no question to where either of us were and I felt much more comfortable, but just a simple conversation fixed our issues for the remaining dives.

Henry James
 
After my last dive I am convinced that the buddy system exists only on paper and in reality everyone just "solo-dives" without realizing it. I did a few experiments with an insta-buddy and they did not go too well.

In order for buddy system to save lives in an emergency, buddies have to be virtually glued to each other at all times. In my observation this rarely happens and the normal distance that divers keep is dangerous in case of a regulator malfunction. If buddies are not moving in water (staying static) and one experiences a malfunction then it may not be as risky but in the scenario where two buddies are swimming in any given direction and one experiences a malfunction, he/she will have to chase a buddy who is swimming away from them. In that case a distance of 5 feet between buddies becomes a 10 feet swim and a distance of 10 feet becomes a distance of 20 feet swim until you finally catch up to the buddy who has no idea you are out of air and chasing him.

During my last dive I did this experiment of holding my breath and chasing my buddy to simulate out of air emergency without informing my insta-buddy. Firstly this guy was a bad buddy to begin with. He always wanted to be a good 20 feet away at all times. This is not uncommon with insta-buddies. The moment you jump in, a buddy means "someone somewhere in the water." While he was swimming in all directions, I would hold my breath and try to catch up to him. It was an eye opening experience how unreliable this buddy system is when you throw in real emergencies and real human beings.

Why dont buddies stay together? Is it because diver training is no longer stressing staying together as much as it did when I did my OW? Or is it because after logging a hundred dives people feel confident to violate one of the most fundamental rules of the buddy system? While we can debate what causes divers to become "solo-divers" after a splash, one thing that has proven to be certain in my case is that I have been diving solo most of the time without realizing it. My experience may be different than most since I dive with a DSLR camera and my buddies may not have the patience to stick with me while I take my shots. Yet even without my DSLR camera, my experience is that there rarely is any such thing as a buddy the way PADI manual defines it.

Given this reality, I am thinking why not train divers specially at AOW to dive with an alternative air source? It could be doubles or a slung pony bottle. After that you can buddy up with the insta-buddy so that in case you experience a malfunction in those fleeting moments when the buddy is within reach you can go for his octo but for 95% of the dive when you buddy is out of reach, you have something to breath from.

Is this a realistic concern or should we all just shut up and dive?

Dive with a camera and you dive alone. As you have found.
 
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