Best agency for learning Tech diving - criteria given - honest :)

[HungoverDiver]

I don't recall the threads, but off the top of my mind I recall that Steve Lewis (Doppler on SB) in his book The Six Skills gives a short checklist of things one should ask when "interviewing" a potential instructor. So my impression is that to "pick a good instructor" one might start with a list of recommended instructors--ask here on SB for recommendations--and then go through a process of interviewing them.

Yes, this is the general advice I've seen as well. As for threads, I mean more responses in some threads on this nature. And I don't really want to hunt through the various replies to my posts to find them. Here's the summary:

-Read Steve Lewis' "Six Skills"
-Learn what agencies you have access too and their standards for intro/fundies
-Ask local divers who they got certified by/recommendations. Start eliminating people from your possible instructor pool
-Ask to speak with instructors you're interested in. Ask them these questions:
---1) how many students have you taught?
---1a) how many students have moved on to other tech courses?
---2) how many students have passed your course?
---3) what are your expectations for me as a student? what skills should I have? how many dives do you think I should have completed?
---4) how is your tech program run? what other courses do you teach?
---5) what was the last course you took as an instructor?

-Decide if this instructor matches with what you are looking for.

I can't think of anything else right now...

 

[Makhno]

Hey epoque, I think you got off on the wrong foot due to nothing more than semantics and having stumbled on a word that has become a "hot button." It is semantically splitting hairs, but I believe there is a difference between simply being "thrilled" by something and "thrill seeking." Another term that has been used for a thrill seeker is "adrenaline junkie." Someone who seeks out "danger" purely for the sensory reward of having survived something dangerous. Endorphin rush, and all that. There is an element of recklessness associated with thrill seeking. The term is often associated with "extreme sports."

"Thrill" and "thrilling," as used in their ordinary everyday context, can be confused with "thrill seeking." There's nothing inherently wrong with being "thrilled" with various aspects of diving. But it seems the use of any term that includes "thrill" can trigger a knee-jerk reaction. Even in recreational PADI courses, I distinctly recall being taught that although there are many valid reasons to dive, thrill-seeking is NOT one of them. For example, in my PADI Deep course, it was taught that "for the thrill of it" is NOT a reason to "dive deep." I believe these wise admonitions have planted the word "thrill" in some people's minds and created a hot button, to the extent that any time such a person hears another diver mention the word "thrill" it triggers the knee-jerk response of "not a valid reason" and raises a yellow flag as to whether the person is merely thrill seeking.

Agreed.

Of course it should be great fun; if it weren't, why would we spend such a fortune and so much time doing it? But the fun shouldn't be the kind of rush that people get by looking death in the eye and surviving to tell about it. I most enjoy a dive when I feel confident that I've done all I can to reduce and mitigate risk.

epoque, I've PMd you some names of well-regarded technical diving instructors in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia, some of whom I know personally and some of whom I only know by reputation. I didn't bother giving their agency affiliations because they each can issue cards from an alphabet soup of whichever agencies they happen to have paid this year's dues for -- ANDI, IANTD, TDI, PADI/DSAT, PSAI, etc. As others have said or implied, not many dive centers or charter boats will refuse your business just because they don't like your instructor's agency.

 

[epoque]

Hi Lorenzoid - agree with you totally. But i gave context and clarified. Yet 30 posts later, the dude is still implying the same thing. Anyway, I guess also there comes a point where you stop condescending to fellow divers - I mean isnt there or are we always going to have to watch every word in case someone starts dressing you down over semantics instead of reading the post and clearly seeing the context. Besides, if I had said 'because it will be fun' then I would have been met with - 'fun is not a valid reason' - as fun implies no sense of danger (i actually agree with that). What am I meant to say? My point is that excitement needn't be reckless or dangerous. It can be. But it doesnt have to be. And I was clear about that in my later post.

And I am completely sincere when I say that my worry is for the sport and community. So much ego and BS and pecking order. If anything should happen to any one of us in diving, there will be people all over tabloids, Youtube and Facebook looking to criticise. People outside the sport. And I would like to think if I cannot type, you guys would say 'he made some mistakes but diving has risks and it could happen to any of us'. I am sad that the community of divers seems a lot about 'told you so'. I have seen this change over the years. The older guys are not like this. Its a real shame. I can assure anyone on this board that if they had an accident and people critisised, I would 100% give them the benefit of the doubt. Put myself in their shoes. Look for a reason to support them. Its what being in a community is about. My first day and I get that treatment - and I left it but as I say - the dude wouldn't let it drop. Anyways - I was having fun in my reply - not that bothered.

 

[boulderjohn]

If we can get back to the instructor v. agency question, I am going to say that although the instructor is important, in some cases the agency is as well. In my tech training, I left one instructor/agency for another, and it was very much the agency, not the instructor, that triggered the change. The problem is that it is hard for someone looking at agencies from the outside to tell the difference. Here is a short list of things that might be considered.

1. If you are planning to go all the way through the tech training to the top trimix certification, look carefully at how many steps there are in that path and what the requirements are for those steps. The differences between some are absolutely HUGE, and depending upon where you live, you might conclude that with some agencies it might be close to impossible--and incredibly expensive--for you to get there.

2. There is by no means unanimity among tech divers about how things are done in tech diving. Different people have different opinions. The recent thread on deep stops should show that. With some agencies, the instructors will teach you that there are differences of opinion, discuss those differences, and help you choose which choices you will make. Other agencies will tell you which position you must take on every issue, telling you that all others are wrong. Some of those decisions can be pretty major, and you may find yourself disagreeing. This can go to even very fine points. I was taught that I had to do a certain minor skill a certain way, and if I deviated from it, I was wrong. Then I switched agencies and got into training to be a tech instructor. In one of my training exercises, I corrected an instructor trainer (who was acting as a student on the dive) for doing that skill wrong. He later asked me why it was wrong. I had no idea--it was just what I had been taught and required to do. He said he always did it the other way, and he suggested I try it. I did, and it was so much better that I always do it that way now. A month ago I ran into someone else who had experienced exactly the same thing, and we had a good laugh about it.

 

[epoque]

Boulderjohn - GREAT post - sort of thing that only insight can give and no retail website will tell. Do you think you could flesh-out some examples of differences with agency names. TDI and IANTD seem to be two agencies coming up in my research and where I can find a local instructors.

 

[boulderjohn]

Boulderjohn - GREAT post - sort of thing that only insight can give and no retail website will tell. Do you think you could flesh-out some examples of differences with agency names. TDI and IANTD seem to be two agencies coming up in my research and where I can find a local instructors.

I am reluctant to start a flame war.

I don't think you will find a whole lot of difference between IANTD and TDI in the areas I mentioned. In those cases, the instructor is your most important choice.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

+1 for Gideon, you'll have a hard time finding better.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Hello - I am going to Thailand in a few days and can't seem to get anywhere by reading the various agency websites. I dont know enough to know what to look.

I want to learn Tec diving and can't wait to get stuck in to the theory as much as get wet. With the caveat firmly in place, that I realise all agencies/systems will have their merits, and critically, of course its the instructor not the agency alphabet that matters. Could you guys please help me decide (or put me in the right direction) on which course to take based on these three criteria:

1) I am most interested in a) diving deep just for the thrill/adventure/self-discovery/video with lights and learning about mixed gases; b) cave diving as a future direction

2) Where the qualification is most recognised worldwide (my thinking is: one might argue CMAS is a superior system for OW than PADI but nothing beats PADI to just rock up with your card and do a fun dive anywhere in the world). With technical diving being much more specialist, I would like to certify with an agency which is widely recognised wherever I go to dive.

3) My diving is mainly SE Asia and Red Sea - with one-off trips all over.

Thanks in advance for any tips

ps. I have searched the forum and cannot find a thread - sorry if I missed this - kindly post a link and I will read

The best technical training site in SE Asia (GUE, IANTD, PADITec) is in Puerto Galera Philippines at Tech Asia:

Technical Diving | Puerto Galera | Philippines | With Nitrox and Trimix courses.

 

[kensuf]

How to find a good instructor..

This is not meant to be the only list of questions you should ask your potential instructor, but I think it is a pretty good starting point.

1. Ask the instructor for a list of references. Specifically, people he has taught in the past. Ask them about their diving background, and what they thought of the class, and how they have put those skills to use.

What you should be listening for are people that have continued their diving and have found the skills they learned to be valuable to them. Personally, I am less impressed with an instructor that has certified hundreds of divers but only a small margin gained anything useful than I am with an instructor that only produces 5-10 divers a year, but all of them learned useful skills, engaged in diving, and doing quite a bit.

2. Ask the instructor what kind of diving he does when he's not getting paid. When was the last time he went diving for fun?

In my opinion, your instructor should be passionate about diving. I believe that someone that is truly passionate will do their best and work harder than someone that is jaded, burned out, and only goes diving when he is being paid.

I also think it is good for an instructor to actively play "one level above" what they teach, but I know several instructors that I think very highly of that do dive for fun, but do not regularly dive a level above what they teach. So do not let this be a single deciding point, just consider it a bonus.

3. Ask the instructor about his teaching style, and what the schedule for each day look like.

What you need to listen for is a teaching style that fits with your personality. Even great instructors may run their courses in a schedule/format that is incompatible with you; some may go for a "boot camp" mentality where the first dive of the day begins shortly after 6AM, and the day ends at 7PM. Others may not want to get started until 10AM and finish by 4PM. And everywhere in between.

If you're the kind of person that likes to start at 10AM then the 6AM course may not be for you, and if you're the kind of person that expects/wants a boot camp, the 10AM course may not be for you.

4. Ask the instructor about gear configuration, what configuration he dives, and what he would expect from you.

Some instructors are dogmatic and rigid on their gear choices, others believe in "doing what works". And some are once again in between.

For instance, while I am not dogmatic about the gear my students use as long as it is safe, because the majority of my experience is in the "hogarthian" style, I may not be able to offer very helpful suggestions to someone diving side-mount.

5. Ask the instructor what his expected outcomes for the course are. What does he expect you to be able to do by the end of the course. What does "success" mean. What constitutes failure.

Your instructor should have an idea of what he expects from someone, and he should be able to articulate that coherently and intelligibly.

6. Ask the instructor who his mentors were. How did he learn to teach the material he is presenting? Who did he "study under". How long did it take him to become an instructor for the course you are taking. What is his diving experience for the course you are interested in taking.

Depending on the course, your instructor should have mentored under multiple different instructors over a period of time. It took me a year to become a cave instructor once I really decided to complete the process, and it took me six months (and close to 100 hypoxic trimix dives) to become a trimix instructor. I probably took longer than others, but if your instructor was able to become a cave instructor in a month (or less), or a trimix instructor in a week, well how much experience does he/she really have in the subject?

7. Ask your instructor why he/she wants to teach a particular course.

There are many reasons why someone teaches, and the majority of them are valid. This may give you a better insight into your instructor.

8. Ask your instructor when was the last time he took a course, co-taught with someone else, or participated in a workshop.

No one knows everything. Someone that still co-teaches, takes courses, or participates in workshops realizes there is still more to learn and by constantly seeking new sources of information, they are trying to improve.

I hope this helps.

Ken

 

[epoque]

Thanks Kevrumbo - I will be heading to Phillipines later in the year fingers crossed.

Thanks Kensuf - this was PRECISELY what I was looking for. Everyone, not just on this board, but everywhere I look says the same thing that the Instructor is paramount. Their experience and bedside manner so to speak. Really really useful. I will read and digest this fully and take all this advise. Thanks a lot.

Asking you all as instructors out there - would you not be a little offended if someone asked for references etc.?

What do I do if I goto a school which has a few tech instructors - I can't interview them How can I tactfully get to know them?