NACD Instructor standards violation

[Trace Malinowski]

I have been told that PSAI has approved for their AN / DP class or whatever they call it can be taught at EN. I also was told there was no requirement for the students to have any cave training at all. I was also told that several classes have already taken olace there. Has anyone else heard this? Well I was just told that the class was actually TDI not PSAI but the instructor teaches for both.

Eagle's Nest is NOT an approved site for any PSAI Advanced Nitrox class.

 

[GDI]

To keep you all updated, The NACD and the NSS-CDS have taken measures to work together and closer towards safer cave diving and towards higher quality instruction.

We have agreed to work in unison in all possible capacities. This agreement related to matters of training standards, conservation, diver and community education, preservation and exploration is long overdue.

There is much to do, time will tell the effectiveness of these efforts. In the end We believe the cave community as a whole will benefit.

 

[bamafan]

Eagle's Nest is NOT an approved site for any PSAI Advanced Nitrox class.

So is this to be interpreted that as long as the PSAI instructor is not teaching a PSAI class PSAI doesn't care what their instructors do?

 

[Aotus]

To keep you all updated, The NACD and the NSS-CDS have taken measures to work together and closer towards safer cave diving and towards higher quality instruction.

We have agreed to work in unison in all possible capacities. This agreement related to matters of training standards, conservation, diver and community education, preservation and exploration is long overdue.

There is much to do, time will tell the effectiveness of these efforts. In the end We believe the cave community as a whole will benefit.

I would be interested to learn more about this partnership. Will there be a plan published?

Thanks.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

So is this to be interpreted that as long as the PSAI instructor is not teaching a PSAI class PSAI doesn't care what their instructors do?

No. It is to be interpreted that Eagle's Nest is not an approved site in which to conduct the PSAI Advanced Nitrox class. I can tell you that Global HQ would in no way tolerate a student who is not certified as a full cave diver being taken into Eagle's Nest. PSAI also does not allow for full cave to be conducted along with any sort of other class such as Advanced Nitrox.

If an instructor is teaching for another agency within their standards at the time, that situation would need to be looked into by PSAI Global HQ and dealt with on a case by case basis. Depending upon the severity the instructor might be corrected or dismissed. Instructors have been corrected and dismissed since I joined as training director in 2011. If you know of an incident that may require action report it to PSAI Global HQ.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

So is this to be interpreted that as long as the PSAI instructor is not teaching a PSAI class PSAI doesn't care what their instructors do?

As for the NSS-CDS; the training committee had a meeting at our workshop on May 16, 2015 and we decided that: If one of our cavern, or cave instructors was proven to be teaching a class for another agency that violated NSS-CDS standards or safe diving practices it will not be ignored due to lack of standing.

What this means, for example is that if one of our instructors is found to have taught AN/DP in Eagles' Nest for any agency we will start a QA inquiry. If the instructor is violating S&P's or what we consider unsafe diving practices s/he will be investigated. We will not tolerate our instructors doing this nor will we allow them to hide behind the "I was teaching a class through another agency" excuse if it violates or S&P's OR is considered an unsafe diving practice.

 

[Wookie]

What this means, for example is that if one of our instructors is found to have taught AN/DP in Eagles' Nest for any agency we will start a QA inquiry. If the instructor is violating S&P's or what we consider unsafe diving practices s/he will be investigated. We will not tolerate our instructors doing this nor will we allow them to hide behind the "I was teaching a class through another agency" excuse if it violates or S&P's OR is considered an unsafe diving practice.

You all know I don't have a dog in the fight, but I find this a slippery slope. I became a SDI instructor specifically so I could teach a solo class when PADI (the agency I started out with) wrote a policy letter stating unequivocally that they would never support solo diving, that solo diving was the work of the devil, and that Solo divers wouldn't die (because nothing dies in the PADI curriculum), but that solo divers would be sent to the seventh level of hell.

But PADI never said I couldn't teach a SDI solo class just because it was against their standards. If you are going to enforce CDS standards on a active instructor for another agency while teaching to the standards of the other agency, you'd better fall in line with the other agency or disallow any instructor from being active with CDS and another agency at the same time.

If I find an instructor who can wheedle a waiver to teach me full TDI trimix at EN even though I haven't had any cave training and you kick him out of CDS because he did so, I think you are in for more whup-ass than you bargain for.

 

[GDI]

If I find an instructor who can wheedle a waiver to teach me full TDI trimix at EN even though I haven't had any cave training and you kick him out of CDS because he did so, I think you are in for more whup-ass than you bargain for.

Maybe I am not reading this correctly in the context you intended, I have been known to do that once in awhile, But as a TDI Instructor I can tell you that if you " I (you) haven't had any cave training" and were now learning TDI Trimix at EN this would be a huge standards violation.

 

[Wookie]

Maybe I am not reading this correctly in the context you intended, I have been known to do that once in awhile, But as a TDI Instructor I can tell you that if you " I (you) haven't had any cave training" and were now learning TDI Trimix at EN this would be a huge standards violation.

Point is, the standards for one agency don't necessarily cross over to another agency, nor should they. Everyone's tolerance for safety and risk is different, as is our insurance companies' tolerance. I could easily set up a dive in EN where I had an instructor to teach me the class and a dozen other cave instructors to keep me alive. I'd bet (as a TDI instructor) I could set it up and get a waiver for the class. Maybe not. Doesn't matter, I own the boat and the helium, I don't need a card to dive trimix. And I certainly have no desire to see the inside of EN.

Don't get wrapped up in the minutiae. If I drive my Florida registered vehicle with my Florida driver's license where the speed limit is 70 on a Texas highway at 85, I'm not going to get stopped in either Florida or Texas. What someone teaching TDI has to do with their NACD or CDS certs is the same, exactly zero.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Point is, the standards for one agency don't necessarily cross over to another agency, nor should they. Everyone's tolerance for safety and risk is different, as is our insurance companies' tolerance. I could easily set up a dive in EN where I had an instructor to teach me the class and a dozen other cave instructors to keep me alive. I'd bet (as a TDI instructor) I could set it up and get a waiver for the class. Maybe not. Doesn't matter, I own the boat and the helium, I don't need a card to dive trimix. And I certainly have no desire to see the inside of EN.

Don't get wrapped up in the minutiae. If I drive my Florida registered vehicle with my Florida driver's license where the speed limit is 70 on a Texas highway at 85, I'm not going to get stopped in either Florida or Texas. What someone teaching TDI has to do with their NACD or CDS certs is the same, exactly zero.

Frank, I think you are over complicating it by over simplifying. [emoji2]

What I take from this isn't cave agencies advocating going after the equivalent of jay walkers. It is them saying taking intro divers into places like EN or LOG will from this point forward be considered a standards violation as intro divers have no business being in those types of caves.

Trying to use the banner of another agency as a cover will no longer protect the instructor. And it shouldn't.