Differences in cavern vs cavern+intro

[elgoog]

Hi -

I'm starting to look into getting a taste of overhead diving and have been reading the many threads about it on SB and CDF. The discussion about doing cavern on its own vs combining it with intro has happened a bunch of times and is impacted by multiple factors. I looked a little deeper into that from the point of view of the course contents only, all else being the same. Of course, I realize that not all the courses are exactly the same and instructors may approach them differently but I'm going by what I've found in the course outline and standards docs.

To me, it looks like the main additional skills in intro to cave that are not normally covered in a stand-alone cavern class are the lost line and lost diver drill. Is this a fair assessment? This is assuming both courses are done in doubles, drysuit and my skills are at GUE Fundies (rec) level in this configuration. Also, never done any kind of overhead diving at all so this would be my first experience with that.

I feel like these two skills are really essential even if I end up doing "only" cavern dives. From a practical standpoint, adding the extra 2-3 days to do the cavern+intro combo makes a lot of sense for me as well - I have to travel cross country regardless of whether I pick Mexico or Florida and the incremental cost of these 2-3 days is small compared to the cost, effort, time, etc it takes to plan a trip like this.

Thanks in advance,
elgoog

 

[KevinNM]

I did cavern with Jon Bernot. He covered lost line., but not lost diver. I highly recommend him.

He normally does cavern plus intro, but I told him that Mer didn't think I was ready for that. And after seeing me in the water he agreed. He felt I needed a dozen more dives in LP85s. Then I've been congested as hell all month

 

[Jack Hammer]

There are a few other skills in Intro besides lost buddy and lost line. There is no lights exit and air sharing with no lights. Depending on the agency or instructor there may be more.

 

[tbone1004]

@elgoog I'm not 100% sure since they aren't often broken up, and I haven't read up on each agencies standards. I think a lot of it will depend on which agencies cavern course you take, and with which instructor. My initial thoughts are like above, it should be blind and lost skills, both buddy and line, and a lights out air sharing drill/s

now, that said. The question on the validity of combining the two depends on where you want to do your primary cave diving in my opinion. If in Florida, I think you'll be pretty disappointed with the cavern zone restriction. Most of ours aren't that big.... If in Mexico, you could probably stay at a cavern level for several years, making multiple trips/year down there and not see everything.

 

[KevinNM]

We did lights out exits and air sharing lights out exits in cavern. Probably not as deep and as complex as you would do with a cave course.

 

[tbone1004]

We did lights out exits and air sharing lights out exits in cavern. Probably not as deep and as complex as you would do with a cave course.

what did you do with the reel if you were holding it? reel out in 0 viz or find somewhere to tie off?

genuine question btw

 

[KevinNM]

We never did it with an exploration reel deployed. It was find the gold line, then go out on your line. Jon told me to abandon the reel and come back later for it, don't try to reel out once things have gone to hell.

 

[rjack321]

We never did it with an exploration reel deployed. It was find the gold line, then go out on your line. Jon told me to abandon the reel and come back later for it, don't try to reel out once things have gone to hell.

You would never pull your line(s) in a lights-out exit or and air sharing exit, or lost diver unless everyone is re-found. Whether you are in the cave or the cavern zone does not matter. If the reel happens to be in your hand at the moment of extremis then tie if off if possible. If there's no convenient tie-off then lock it off and set it down and boogie.

There have been quite a few (cave) divers who have pulled lines they shouldn't have recently, seems to be a lost understanding that when there are "problems" you leave the lines (jumps, gaps, and the primary reel). Two fatalities have happened in Grand Cenote and Ginnie within the past year that involved lost divers and removed gear.

 

[rjack321]

elgoog I would plan on 5 or 6 days of training. If you get through cavern then you have a few extra days to do cavern dives with your instructor. If you do well with cavern and continue into intro that's great too. I wouldn't worry about what card you end up with at the end of the week.

 

[elgoog]

I've only looked at the detailed course outlines and standards docs of TDI and NSS-CDS simply because those were the ones that were straight forward to find. It sounds like it's also influenced by the instructor and not just the course outlines, in terms of going beyond the minimum.

There are a few other skills in Intro besides lost buddy and lost line. There is no lights exit and air sharing with no lights.

We did lights out exits and air sharing lights out exits in cavern. Probably not as deep and as complex as you would do with a cave course.

From what I saw, exits and air sharing in simulated lost visibility (lights out, blackout mask, eyes closed) is in the cavern course of both agencies and repeated in intro.

The question on the validity of combining the two depends on where you want to do your primary cave diving in my opinion. If in Florida, I think you'll be pretty disappointed with the cavern zone restriction. Most of ours aren't that big.... If in Mexico, you could probably stay at a cavern level for several years, making multiple trips/year down there and not see everything.

Yes, this is definitely something I've become aware of during my research. I don't know if I have a primary cave dive location in mind yet - I think I'd like to dive both areas after the initial training. With this in mind, I'm actually leaning towards doing the cavern+intro combo so I can get some decent dives in Florida.

elgoog I would plan on 5 or 6 days of training. If you get through cavern then you have a few extra days to do cavern dives with your instructor. If you do well with cavern and continue into intro that's great too. I wouldn't worry about what card you end up with at the end of the week.

I've emailed one instructor in Mexico so far and this is exactly what we discussed. I was really glad this was offered as an option. Is this common in Florida as well?
And, yeah, not really going for a card at this point. Honestly, if I decided to actually pursue this as a regular part of my diving, I would aim to go the GUE route.