Give up my primary regulator???

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As someone who is about to make the decision to buy my first full set of gear, this is the part I keep coming back to that I don't get about the necklace set up protocol. If you're assuming the spare isn't working (which seems to be the primary argument for this set up)....why are you handing the one that IS working away? When you say you have plenty of time to find your spare....isn't the whole basis here that it isn't working?

Traditional octo approach w/ broken spare: He's at risk.
Necklace approach w/ broken spare: I have put myself at risk.

Best case in either situation is a buddy breathing ascent (which no one is trained for anymore, so perhaps not likely in a typical rec situation unless you're with a trusted buddy). Worst case is a CESA. If it's the latter, I'd prefer it to be the original OOA diver, rather than me.

It also concerns me that this set up necessarily involves two people having regulators out of their mouth simultaneously, whereas the traditional octo approach only the OOA diver does.

Again....I'm in between which way to go here, but after reading hundreds of pages of discussions this is what keeps popping up as a sticking point. Would love any feedback on this from either side.

Happy to explain the thinking behind this.

The OOG diver is presumed to be in near or full panic mode, and may have not taken a breath for a minute or so. He or she needs gas NOW. Full stop. The donating diver is breathing well, and can donate gas and go for a minute or so without another breath while the OOG diver settles down. If it turns out that the backup second stage isn't working, then you could buddy breathe.

But if you hand an OOG diver a non-working reg, he or she will do whatever it takes to get your working one in the next few seconds. And that's a way to end up with a double tragedy.

Yup, rescuing someone can be risky, and that's a decision that you have to make. If you can't tolerate the idea of handing over your reg for a few seconds, then you might not choose to do that. But people who do primary donate have decided ahead of time that they are willing to do that.
 
@Nation of Heat if you own your own regulators, it doesn't matter. In pre-dive you go through with your buddy where you go over all of the hand signals because they may have learned different ones than you did, you go over the OOA procedure. You explain to them that they have to ask for it by giving whatever signal they learned to ask for a regulator *unless BSAC trained where they are trained to just take it. in that situation you have to agree on a signal which will be the one you are used to* and then you will pass them your primary second stage.

it's not that difficult....
Before you make further assumptions about BSAC training, I suggest you find out what is required. BSAC divers are taught to "Recipient signals out-of-air, takes donor's AS from stowage, removes own mouthpiece and replaces with donor's AS" . This is taught from Ocean Diver onward.
 
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One thing that also seems to be glanced over in most discussions is what situation you dive in. I'm super intrigued by the necklace approach, but for now 90% of my diving is vacation diving, and many times I'm flying solo which means insta-buddies. For better or worse, in Roatan I've never seen a single person using the necklace and it seems like there is at least some value in using what the divers you're surrounded with are most used to.

All in all, still pretty torn about which way to go on this....but appreciate the discussion.

There is an assumption that the vacation diver (like yourself) is using rented gear. The octopus should work perfectly as it is shop owned and maintained and the shop has a responsibility to provide functional gear (and probably a liability if they do not).

A properly maintained and correctly stowed octo is just fine - we all learned to dive like that. The "problem" is when the octo is not kept at this level of efficiency. There is a lot of discussion on Scubaboard about the "instabuddy" phenomenon. The guy on the boat you cannot trust and the justification for a million pony tanks the world over. Now let us put ourselves in the situation of being matched to just such a partner. You signal out of air - they have forgotten the signal. You approach to take the octo and they swim away. Eventually you get the octo and it delivers nearly as much water as gas.

Throughout the thread we hear from divers who let us they breathe the octo topside, demonstrate and share their procedure for gas sharing and so on. These are responsible people and scuba nerds - they even take time out to post up on a scuba forum. They are not instabuddies.

You are underwater. Your equipment for some reason fails to deliver gas. You need help. You are about to drown. In front of you is a person with a functional regulator delivering gas. You know it works as you can see the exhaust bubbles. You can take it from them. Or die. Right now. Dead. What is your course of action? How long will you internally deliberate the morals and ethics of your actions? No - not here from the comfort of your keyboard - I mean for real - when you are seconds from death?

Now return to the perspective of the donor. You are about to lose your primary regulator without warning or permission. You have not seen the approaching diver as you line up the perfect shot of that colourful sea slug. Before you press the shutter your regulator is wrenched out of your mouth. From award winning photographer to seconds from death in an instant. It is now you that is panicked, in need of help, without gas underwater. It is now you that needs your own octopus regulator. Either that or drown the other guy :wink:

The primary donate system anticipates this scenario, plans for it and provides for it. The backup regulator is just under your chin. You will have tested it yourself and checked it underwater during the descent. You are confident it is working and there for you. It is on a short hose and of no use to anyone else. You can donate (or have taken) the main regulator without any fear of issue with the backup. This is why we call it a backup. It is not an octo.

Of course the same protocol and thinking can be applied to the octopus rig. During descent you can take a couple of breaths from your own octo. You and you buddy can do this together at the end of the descent - face to face. Now you know - both of you - the other person's octo is working. You can go about the dive in full confidence. You don't need a long hose and backup, you just need to understand the responsibilities as a buddy. Maybe the other diver has rental gear and you know and trust the shop, so you figure it is OK. Maybe the dive is shallow and the surface a few fin kicks away so it doesn't matter. Or maybe it is a good habit to get into - to verify the alternate air source and haring procedure with every person you dive with?

Next time you dive watch other people. Check how many of them discuss gas sharing. Watch to see how many test breathe the octopus. Watch them in the water to see how many keep good buddy contact. Ask yourself at regular intervals what would be the outcome if I run out of gas, or diver A, B or C runs out of gas. Right now.

A lot of people are at the "pony" debate by this stage. But if you think about it the separate tank is not needed - just a proper check and proper buddy contact throughout the dive. Why do divers need gas? Failure to properly monitor your SPG and failure to turn the dive early enough. Why do regulators free flow? Bad servicing, poor maintenance, incorrect cracking pressures or unsuitable equipment in freezing conditions. All of this stuff is very very rare. (Thankfully). But the flip side is we tend to take for granted as a result.

Nothing wrong with buying an octopus rig. Just remember that you - or someone about to die - might just, one day, need that octo. Take a breath from it every time you dive. Please. it might be me that needs it.
 
How many of you are happy to use your Octo under stressful conditions? Actually how many of you have ever used your Octo for a whole dive?
How long would it take you to donate your Octo to the OOA diver? It took me more than few seconds to do that on my Rescue Course. And I was in such a hurry that the mouth piece was dislodged and got stuck inside the hollow rubber holder. The other diver have to breath from it without the mouth piece! We have a good laugh afterward.
My alternative is the same as my primary(Apeks) and I regularly swap them over during a dive(rec or tec).
 
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... It took me more than few seconds to do that on my Rescue Course. And I was in such a hurry that the mouth piece was dislodged and got stuck inside the hollow rubber holder. The other diver have to breath from it without the mouth piece!

I have seen this a number of times. If the OOG diver was scared (I would be) they might reject the 2nd stage as a result.

My alternative is the same as my primary(Apeks) and I regularly swap them over during a dive(rec or tec).

I would be happy to dive with you any time.
 
Before you make further assumptions about BSAC training, I suggest you find out what is required. BSAC divers are taught to "Recipient signals out-of-air, takes donor's AS from stowage, removes own mouthpiece and replaces with donor's AS" . This is taught from Ocean Diver onward.

I am aware of what it says in the book, but I have also seen BSAC divers just take an octo if they were not in front of the other diver and then let them know after the fact. Either way, it's an idiotic way to share air and I don't want anyone going anywhere near me without my permission. It is truly something that would prevent me from ever advocating for someone to join BSAC especially if looking for training. I don't care what their skewed studies say about incident rates and secondary take, it's not smart and isn't as safe as primary donate *or secondary donate if on a CCR or double hose which is their only real argument to use the secondary instead of primary through all levels. I can respect that part, and would be OK if it was secondary donate, but secondary take is ridiculous*
 
A lot of people are at the "pony" debate by this stage. But if you think about it the separate tank is not needed - just a proper check and proper buddy contact throughout the dive.

I realize that most recreational divers aren't going to want a pony tank, but I wouldn't dismiss the appeal of this piece of gear out of hand. The nice thing about the pony tank is that it is not dependent on a factor that the diver has no control over - how another human being is going to behave in an emergency. Having a redundant gas supply means that no matter what, I'm always going to have something to breathe (apart from the "planning for simultaneous failures" scenario which isn't realistic).

I could be diving with the same buddy that I have dived with for years, I could have reviewed the procedure for sharing gas many times, my gear could be well serviced, etc... But you just never know how another person is going to react. And unless you spend the whole dive staring at your buddy or physically linked to them, buddy separation actually does happen.

I'm not saying that all recreational divers should dive with a pony, but it is a really nice and comforting insurance policy. Hey, you can even give the whole thing to another diver if necessary. And despite what people say about it being cumbersome - I just don't see that. I dive with a slung 80 and I don't really notice it in the water, even going through relatively tight spaces.
 
Well, as the phrase goes, old habits die hard. But, the more important consideration is to go with what works for you! As long as you are proficient in securing, and deploying when needed, an alternate second stage, and you and your buddy discuss the procedure before splashing, the choice is entirely up to you. Generally, yes. Because, in the “traditional” set up, the alternate second stage is usually on a longer (~40”) hose than the primary (~32-36”), and therefore more suitable for sharing..

There is a pattern emerging that changes even this, however. There are a number of university-based scuba instructional programs in the US with which I have had contact, whose approach is to have the diver use the second stage on the longer hose as their primary, and put the second stage on the shorter hose on a bungee necklace. IOW, it provides the benefits of a ‘primary donate’ approach, while employing fairly standard / commonly encountered hose lengths. I enthusiastically recommend this approach to divers who want to configure a very functional regulator system, using ‘standard’ hose lengths rather than a longer primary hose (5’ or 7’). In fact I demonstrate the approach in OW training, using shop regulators with 'standard' hose lengths, and adding only a bungee necklace (although, adding a 70 degree adapter to the longer, now primary, hose, helps.In the scenario of an out of air diver and a potential donor with a functioning reg in their mouth, the diver who is clearly and unambiguously in the most distress is the OOA diver. If you donate your primary, and find you alternate is not working, you actually have some time (at least a few seconds) to see if there is a correctable problem, then work out a way to share the one functioning second stage with the formerly OOA diver, if there is not one. In reality, the assumption is that the alternate second stage may not be working because it has been dragged through sand, etc. So, yet another advantage of keeping it safe and secure on a bungee beneath your chin is that is it rather unlikely that it will be dragged through anything, PLUS divers that use this set up will periodically breathe from that bungeed alternate to confirm that it is working (as Centrals noted in a previous post).

But, functionality is certainly not the only argument. If I am diving in a (properly trimmed) horizontal configuration, an out of air diver approaching me at the same depth is unlikely to be able to see an alternate attached somewhere in 'the triangle'. What s/he WILL see is what is in my mouth. A very reasonable point! I cannot tell anyone else what is best for them. All I can do is tell people what I do, and why. As an Instructor, I can offer to share equipment at times with students / fellow local divers. I can offer to get in the water with them, if need be, to help them try different configurations, be it regulators, or backplates, etc. But, what I personally find to be best for me is just that – what is best for ME. Under no circumstances will I say that what I do is the only way to do things, nor will I say that it is the best way for anyone else. Now, I will also acknowledge that - with regard to use of a bungeed alternate, and a primary on a longer hose (be it 40”, or 60”, or 84”) - I also know of no reason why that configuration should not work under any situation in recreational diving, irrespective of geography or diversity, other than a matter of an alternative personal preference.

So, I use a long hose (7'), bungeed necklace configuration. The purge cover on my primary second stage - the one in my mouth - is yellow. I started using that as a recreational diver, long before I pursued technical dive training. I know how to use that configuration. I make sure that people who dive with me know how I am using it. I believe in, and actively practice, primary donation in an OOA situation. I use identical second stages on both hoses, with venturi controls and user-adjustable breathing controls. The two second stages are tuned to the same cracking pressures. (I also do not believe in using cheap, lower performing, needlessly detuned "octo's".) My wife dives exactly the same configuration. In fact, we regularly air share during Caribbean dives where we are both using an AL80, because she has a lower RMV than I do, so I breathe from her long hose for 5-10' of a dive, while we are swimming along a reef, and we end up surfacing with essentially the same gas supply. Using a 7’ hose facilitates that practice immensely. But, that is a matter of convenience - sharing air is not essential (although the opportunity to regularly practice the skill is an additional benefit). If we didn't do it, I would simply ascend before her.

What other divers may choose to do is entirely up to them. It does not affect me; it affects them. I make every effort to dive in a self-reliant manner.
This setup with standard hose lengths sounds interesting and worth trying. It's only the cost of a bungee necklace. I wonder about the 'standard' yellow hose/purge cover on the secondary though. Should that be on the now primary if that is what the OOA diver gets, either by donation or grab?
 
I teach my students the yellow hose primary method if using rental gear. I feel that keeping the yellow in your mouth may assist a diver in remembering which one to take.
 
I realize that most recreational divers aren't going to want a pony tank, but I wouldn't dismiss the appeal of this piece of gear out of hand. ....

I can see it has appeal from the numbers of divers that use one. They are great for solo diving and I carry a bailout when solo. Unfortunately to me that says the other person is thinking solo when I see them with a pony and so I don't really want to dive with them. Buddy separation does happen - you are right. But the pony tank means only one person is motivated to stop it. Therefore - unless the person is well known to me - I prefer not to dive with them.
 
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