Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

[Bob DBF]

An OW diver who runs out of air and needs to have a pony bottle handed to them is a lot more likely to be clumsy than a tech diver or Instructor who is used to handling extra bottles.

That's why I, as the doner, would attach the pony to the diver once they are breathing again and calmed down, or keep it and maintain control.


Bob

 

[Colliam7]

Left and right hand valves are ideal for sidemount, but they aren't mandatory. . . . the instructor . . . said that when he is in a situation where those are not available, he just reverses the regulator setup for the left side.

I have SM students work with cylinders that have L and R hand valves. but, I have them dive with both orientations - valve aperture 'out' on at least one dive, and aperture 'in' on at least one dive, so they get a feel for the subtle differences. It really isn't a big deal to dive with two right-hand-valve cylinders.

The recent posts in this thread have brought out some interesting issues, and good food for thought. I realize that I probably have come to pony use from a perspective that may not be universal among recreational divers. I bought a pony because I thought it was a good idea to have an independent / redundant air supply for deep dives. But, I bought a 40cf bottle first, because I was planning to pursue tech, and I wanted a bottle that would function as a deco bottle. Therefore, I also started practicing the procedures for switching from backgas to the pony. However, I never felt that I was developing any complacency about my backgas supply arising from knowing I had a redundant air supply, because from my perspective a deco bottle was something very different than a redundant air supply. But, I think Lorenzoid makes a point that needs to be kept in mind, when working with recreational divers who set up a pony - the emphasis has to be on positioning that bottle as strictly an emergency supply. Sling it, dive with it, practice deploying it.

As for the 'slung' vs 'sidemount' issue, I have a feeling it is perhaps being given a bit more attention than it merits. When I added a pony to my rig, I had no SM experience, I didn't know what 'sidemount' was. I just clipped a rigged 40cf bottle to a shoulder D-ring, and a waist D-ring. I did practice deploying the pony reg, so I could switch to that bottle efficiently if I ever needed to in an emergency (have never needed to). While I like having my SM bottles tucked in snugly, when I use a small pony, or a deco bottle with BM doubles, they do 'hang' a bit. Frankly, I am so used to it, I don't notice it. The idea that a diver who wants redundancy should go to a SM configuration is worth considering. And, that is one of the options I discuss with students. It is less expensive to simply add a pony / deco bottle reg to a pony bottle, than to add a new BCD, and new hoses to an existing first stage, to create a pair of regs optimally rigged for SM. So, I can understand the reluctance to do that. I do not - yet - see much single cylinder SM diving off of the NC coast. But, if a new diver decides to begin with a SM rig (not a high likelihood until we start training OW students in single cylinder SM), using a SM configuration for redundancy makes a lot of sense.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . But, I bought a 40cf bottle first, because I was planning to pursue tech, and I wanted a bottle that would function as a deco bottle. Therefore, I also started practicing the procedures for switching from backgas to the pony. However, I never felt that I was developing any complacency about my backgas supply arising from knowing I had a redundant air supply, because from my perspective a deco bottle was something very different than a redundant air supply. But, I think Lorenzoid makes a point that needs to be kept in mind, when working with recreational divers who set up a pony - the emphasis has to be on positioning that bottle as strictly an emergency supply. Sling it, dive with it, practice deploying it.

When I suggested that carrying a pony could lead to complacency, I was referring to complacency with the pony--rusty deployment skills, lax maintenance, etc.--not monitoring the backgas. Of course, no one on SB would be complacent--I mean, among those OTHER divers.

Your last sentence above is what I had in mind.


The fact that we see so many different suggestions here about how to use a pony is one reason it doesn't appeal to me--except at the highest level of generality, there is no standard way to use a pony--and I have chosen the alternative way to address the rec diving redundancy issue of anal-retentive buddy diving (aka team diving), where my teammate/buddy carries my extra gas (volume planned in advance), and the dance that the donor and recipient perform is well choreographed--the same time-honored procedure used by tec divers. That was discussed long ago in this thread and criticized as inconveniently requiring a reliable, similarly trained buddy. True. Admittedly, I have drunk deeply from the standardization kool-aid. Anyway, IF one chooses to go the pony route, then my thinking is that they should choose ONE way to do it among the various alternatives, with all the details figured out, stick with it, take it seriously, and practice practice practice with it until it is second nature. I observed earlier that sidemount would essentially force one to do all that, but the new gear and training does have a cost.

 

[uncfnp]

So if a diver can not intelligently manage a pony they will do better with sidemount?

I typically adhere to the KISS principle. I do not believe that added complexity = increased safety.

 

[Jack Hammer]

That's why I, as the doner, would attach the pony to the diver once they are breathing again and calmed down, or keep it and maintain control.


Bob

Please allow me to remind you we are in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" forum, not advanced or technical forums.

I doubt most newer OW divers are gonna handle these situations totally relaxed and perfectly calm as if they didn't just find their breathing supply interrupted, all while staying still, maintaining depth and trim so you can "simply" remove a bottle from yourself and attach it to them. I especially have a difficult time picturing this smoothly done with the 12 year old being discussed.

BTW, for those not familiar, handing a bottle off is not the same as unclipping one from a line.

Edit: added smiley.

 

[Lorenzoid]

So if a diver can not intelligently manage a pony they will do better with sidemount?

Maybe. Or maybe if a diver cannot intelligently manage a pony or find another solution, then still another solution might be to dive more conservatively/differently than whatever the diver is currently doing that leads him to believe he's not safe enough simply following what is taught to the masses in the OW course. Pony and sidemount are not the only two solutions.

Also, it seems to me there can be something of a continuum from slung pony to sidemount, with the "intelligently-managed" (I like your term) pony closer to the sidemount end than the haphazardly-managed pony at the other end of the spectrum. Where in the spectrum does one's pony usage lie? It might not be clear. Sidemount could provide more clarity.

I typically adhere to the KISS principle. I do not believe that added complexity = increased safety.

I believe in KISS, too, which is why I don't carry a pony. The simplest solution is really just what we were all taught in the OW course: diligent adherence to the buddy system. That said, if one is determined to add the complexity of carrying another tank, then maybe the risk/complexity ratio of "a little" complexity--that is, "non-intelligently" carrying a pony--is higher than the risk/complexity ratio of going full-on sidemount? Kind of like that saying about "a little knowledge" being a dangerous thing. Maybe a "non-intelligently managed pony" can be a dangerous thing?

 

[uncfnp]

I guess it all depends on the reason for a pony. Let’s take me as an example.

Yes I was taught buddy diving in OW through AOW. But I found this didn’t match my IRL diving. My partner/buddy has poor situational awareness (that’s another topic not for here). I tried everything known to mankind. None got his attention. And this was drift diving and as we all know even the most buddy adherent dive teams have moments of inattention.

Our dives got deeper and more advanced but his awareness did not improve. And now we are lobstering. We needed to make a change. I could have given up my dive and just stayed focused of him. But for me this wasn’t a viable option. So now what? Solo diving was our answer. And for us this meant not only a change in gear and the addition of a pony but also a switch in mentality. For us it was the perfect solution.

Now look at it from sidemount. These are ow recreational dives. We didn’t want to extend our dives but we did want to make them safer. The addition of the pony bottle did not change our dives. It was easy to do but we still did did a solo class because as I said, solo diving is not just about a pony bottle. But to side mount I would have needed to add much more sophisticated gear and courses to *do it right* But beyond all this is the actual dives. Remember this are drift dives with live drops, sometimes hot drops. So I would have to enter and exit kitted up. Add to this sporty seas. Sorry, not happening, not for recreational dives when all I needed was a redundant air supplied that is more then adequately supplied by a small pony.

Is their anyone that truly feels that sm doubles would be safer for me?

Are buddy teams the best for everyone?...no.
Are ponies the solution to all things scuba?...no.
Is sidemount the safer or even preferred option for redundency?...no.

Diving with a pony as emergency redundency is not complex. It requires minimal additional gear and training. It is the KISS of emergency redundancy.

Remenber, this is about ponies and redundency only. Diving with additional bottles to extend bottom time is another discussion and has unnecessarily bleared the lines of this topic.

 

[Bob DBF]

Please allow me to remind you we are in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" forum, not advanced or technical forums.

Ah, yes.

Perhaps the divers should hone their basic OW skills before applying technical diving procedures and skills to a problem that can be solved by OW buddy skills.



Bob

 

[MichaelMc]

Also, it seems to me there can be something of a continuum from slung pony to sidemount, with the "intelligently-managed" (I like your term) pony closer to the sidemount end than the haphazardly-managed pony at the other end of the spectrum. Where in the spectrum does one's pony usage lie? It might not be clear. Sidemount could provide more clarity.

This ^^^^ is a key point. Sidemount procedures get critiqued extensively because the users that need it for restrictions are doing advanced diving. 'I carry a pony' is a much looser thing. Who is to critique how I carry a pony??? That might leave some bad pony practices. Some ways of using a pony make the pony very accessible. Some might be even safer than side mount, as a necklaced pony is always on your neck, while your other sidemount reg might be clipped off if you are breathing the necklaced one.

Sidemount seems to have evolved to general consensus on rather safe procedures. Plus it carries many benefits for travel and tank flexibility. This thread diversion to sidemount 'pony' started from a context of travel when you might not know the 'pony' you could use, and if sidemount gave you better options than slinging the AL80 that was the only 'pony' available. Hot drop and boat ladders are challenges, with solutions, but they might be bigger challenges if your AL19 pony suddenly grew to an AL80.

If you dive a 19 at home with great procedures, side seems unneeded. If you travel by air, maybe side is a good plan to go to.

 

[uncfnp]

Maybe a "non-intelligently managed pony" can be a dangerous thing?

Lorenzoid. Pony bottles for emergency gas redundancy is so simple it would be really hard to mismanage, unless they start trying to use it for other issues.