If you were to design your own OW course, how would it go?

[EireDiver606]

I’d probably call it Rec1.

GUE Rec 1?1?

 

[EireDiver606]

IMHO Divers don’t have bad OW training, after all we all start somewhere.

No one develops perfect buoyancy and masters every skill straight from OW. It is simply not possible. People say OW is watered down or it’s not a high standard, but it is decent, especially when you have a good instructor like I did.

Where new divers make up skill level and expertise is not from the OW certification, but from independent dives with a buddy after that.

Stop expecting go divers to be amazing after their intital course, it doesn’t work like that.

What I don’t like is the standard of training after the OW course in most agencies. So when you finally get 50 or 100 dives under your belt, you say “what next?” And the answer to that is “not much”.
They’re meant to educate you, make you a better diver etc but all most of them are is another useless c card like Adventure Diver. What does it teach? Seriously. (And btw I’m not agency bashing I’m just bashing the course itself) It doesn’t teach you anything is the answer it just exchanges credit card details for a c card.

Sure, it’s definitely fun, but it’s not real education or skill improvement by any means.

 

[boulderjohn]

IMHO Divers don’t have bad OW training, after all we all start somewhere.

No one develops perfect buoyancy and masters every skill straight from OW. It is simply not possible. People say OW is watered down or it’s not a high standard, but it is decent, especially when you have a good instructor like I did.

Where new divers make up skill level and expertise is not from the OW certification, but from independent dives with a buddy after that.

Stop expecting go divers to be amazing after their intital course, it doesn’t work like that.

Your post implies that there are only two levels of buoyancy: terrible and perfect. You suggest that at some point after OW certification, people with terrible initial buoyancy suddenly become perfect. I am not sure when that happens--I am far from that myself, and I have been diving for a while.

There are many levels of buoyancy control, and what many of us would like to see is students leaving class with far better buoyancy control than used to be the norm. They will continue to improve as they dive, but they should start out with pretty decent skills if properly instructed in it from the start. What we should not do is say, "Well, they are not going to be any good at this until they go out and dive any more, so there is not point in working on it now."

What I don’t like is the standard of training after the OW course in most agencies. So when you finally get 50 or 100 dives under your belt, you say “what next?” And the answer to that is “not much”.
They’re meant to educate you, make you a better diver etc but all most of them are is another useless c card like Adventure Diver. What does it teach? Seriously. (And btw I’m not agency bashing I’m just bashing the course itself) It doesn’t teach you anything is the answer it just exchanges credit card details for a c card.

Sure, it’s definitely fun, but it’s not real education or skill improvement by any means.

There are tons of training options available from just about every agency. That is one of the criticisms you see the most often on ScubaBoard. People complain that there is a class for everything imaginable.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

What I meant is not only recording your class, but showing your students videos on Youtube etc. about trim, propulsion, skills.

Thanks for the clarification. As obvious as your suggestion is, I had not thought of that and will look into showing some good videos of that. Heck, I could make my own too.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There are many levels of buoyancy control, and what many of us would like to see is students leaving class with far better buoyancy control than used to be the norm. They will continue to improve as they dive, but they should start out with pretty decent skills if properly instructed in it from the start. What we should not do is say, "Well, they are not going to be any good at this until they go out and dive any more, so there is not point in working on it now."
There are tons of training options available from just about every agency. That is one of the criticisms you see the most often on ScubaBoard. People complain that there is a class for everything imaginable.

I think a lot of the irritation with how dive instruction is structured is how it’s seemingly become a cash cow for agencies, and the source of contempt for people here on SB.

Open water teaches the bare minimum to get in the water. You want a little more like to get on an average charter boat? Then you need AOW, $$$ ding ding ding $$$.
Another $200 or whatever it is now.
Want to learn to have good buoyancy, then you need PPB, $$$ get your wallet out $$$.
Want to use nitrox? $200 please $$$
Rescue class $$$ Pay up sucker $$$
Another $250 or whatever is is now.
And it goes on. By the time you take all the courses you’re in it thousands.

So, Put Another Dollar In is a valid acronym in the minds of many. A lot of people are reading between the lines and seeing through the guise that it’s structured this way to feed students slowly with info for better absorption. However it also hard to ignore that it smacks of greed and a money shake down.

If they were smart they would have an optional alternative course to the piecemeal option.
They need to have a premium class that’s a lot longer that includes all the stuff mentioned above. So the initial OW course stays the same at the same price. But then all the other things get included at a discounted price because you already have the students there. They’re already signed up, payed up, and the logistics of assembling the students is taken care of.
So for example, instead of nitrox costing another $200-$250, it costs $100 or $150 because it’s a simple add on and everybody is already there in learning mode. A Course like this could be carried over a few weeks with some class work being done at night during the week. Also a few dives could double for other dives. In other words, a few AOW dives could also serve as the nitrox check out dives to maximize efficiency. Everybody is already on the beach geared up during all these dives, do the rescue dives.
The entire combined course could be called something like Platinum OW Diver...or something else creative.
But the program would be an option for those that have the interest, the time, and the money.
It would be expensive, but look at everything you’d get, pieced together the way it is now would be a lot more money.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If they were smart they would have an optional alternative course to the piecemeal option.

Dive shops/instructors can offer package deals where they customers courses in bulk essentially.I think it is a great idea. Yes, it is putting a bunch of piecemeal courses together, but it may meet the demands of some customers. Other customers, who may want to take a class here and there while on vacation and don't have a lot of time to dedicate, will prefer the piecemeal courses.

When I go independent, I'll be offering package training. Something along the lines of: open water OW, nitrox, dry suit, aow would be navigation, deep, night/limited visibility, search & recovery, rescue/first aid/cpr/emergency oxygen.

I expect low demand for this, but I'm looking for low volume for those wanting "more"

 

[boulderjohn]

So, Put Another Dollar In is a valid acronym in the minds of many. A lot of people are reading between the lines and seeing through the guise that it’s structured this way to feed students slowly with info for better absorption. However it also hard to ignore that it smacks of greed and a money shake down.

First of all, you do understand that all agencies have multiple courses and multiple levels of certification, don't you? It isn't just one?

Next, do you believe instructors should be paid for the work they do, or do you believe they should work for free in order to make it cheaper for students? Along those lines, do you believe a course that lasts longer and requires more work for the instructor should cost more, or do you think the instructor should be willing to add more work for free?

Next, are you saying that courses should be longer and contain more information and training than a student needs at that level, thus costing more for the student, rather than containing the amount of training necessary for that level, leaving it up to the student to decide later on whether another course teaching that extra material is necessary?

Finally, you do realize, don't you, that there is nothing preventing a shop or individual instructor from packaging training any way that will work for a student, and charging whatever the student is willing to pay? Adding nitrox to the OW course, for example, is already a standard option for PADI.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

First of all, you do understand that all agencies have multiple courses and multiple levels of certification, don't you? It isn't just one?

Next, do you believe instructors should be paid for the work they do, or do you believe they should work for free in order to make it cheaper for students? Along those lines, do you believe a course that lasts longer and requires more work for the instructor should cost more, or do you think the instructor should be willing to add more work for free?

Next, are you saying that courses should be longer and contain more information and training than a student needs at that level, thus costing more for the student, rather than containing the amount of training necessary for that level, leaving it up to the student to decide later on whether another course teaching that extra material is necessary?

Finally, you do realize, don't you, that there is nothing preventing a shop or individual instructor from packaging training any way that will work for a student, and charging whatever the student is willing to pay? Adding nitrox to the OW course, for example, is already a standard option for PADI.

Yes I understand all of the above, and no instructors should not work for free or at a discount. But packaging several courses together at somewhat of an overall discount IMO is a win win. The students are already there, the instructor is already there. Doing all these classes separately means a lot more logistics, possible overnight stays, more gas, more pool fees, etc.
The instructor could discount AND make more money at the same time. Time is money. In my work, if somebody decides they want an extra while I’n already there, I could do it for a third or half less while I’m there and still make more money than rescheduling a separate appointment at twice the price even allowing for trip/ travel. I’m already set up and I’m already there.
And yes I know all agencies do piecemeal, but Put Another Dollar In is the flag ship and originator for this, so the moniker stuck, that goes back way before my (or your) time anyway.
I’m sure independent instructors have the freedom to already do this but I’d like to see it more mainstreamed and actually given a dedicated title. That way when operators can see it they know the diver is a notch above. Master diver would be the other option but as it is now how much does it cost to get with all the separate useless specialties?

 

[KevinNM]

GUE Rec 1?1?

Yup. It’s probably not perfect, but it goes a lot farther towards that.

 

[boulderjohn]

And yes I know all agencies do piecemeal, but Put Another Dollar In is the flag ship and originator for this, so the moniker stuck, that goes back way before my (or your) time anyway.

Did you ever think that the fact that ALL agencies do it might indicate that they see something good about it? You still have not explained what is wrong with having different courses to teach different skills.

By the way, all the local colleges around here do the same thing, those scoundrels. You can take all sorts of courses on all sorts of topics, and those dirty rats charge money when you take them.