Unacceptable Instructor Behaviors...

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but there are a ton of instructors out there that passed their IE but aren't instructors.
You have a right to feel that way, but I certainly don't. It's my opinion that most instructors are motivated by their desire to make their living by doing what they truly love to do. There's a definite lack of mentoring going on in our industry. In fact, our Instructor to Instructor forum was designed to facilitate that very thing. If you join the Divemaster or any of the Instructor groups (you have to show proof that you are), then you're automagically allowed access. There we get to talk about our students behind their backs with other professionals that can add insight and sometimes incite as to how to handle the situation. It's certainly helped me out. I teach a rather unique trim, buoyancy & control class which is really just a variation of my OW class. I invite any instructor who wants to see how I teach to either help me out with a class or let me take you through it mono y mono. Either way, there's no charge for instructors.
 
It's a good approach to management but the reality of it is that, as good of a manager as you may be, there actually are bad "mechanics" who are just not interested in becoming better regardless of how much you work with them to improve. I've seen a few in my 32 years in engineering - luckily, it's been an exception - and they were eventually shown the door!
There are exceptions. but they are rare. I held the power in my shop. If you didn't want to do things my way, then you would go hungry, very hungry. Mechanics were given a fair chance to competently diagnose a car and convince me of their diagnosis. If they messed up, then while I would provide the parts for free, while they got to give free labor as we made it right. Mechanics, children, students and more will rise to meet your expectations. Rarely, will they exceed them, so if you want excellence then you have to set that as a standard and hold them to it. However, to demand excellence, you have to demonstrate excellence.
 
There are exceptions. but they are rare. I held the power in my shop. If you didn't want to do things my way, then you would go hungry, very hungry. Mechanics were given a fair chance to competently diagnose a car and convince me of their diagnosis. If they messed up, then while I would provide the parts for free, while they got to give free labor as we made it right. Mechanics, children, students and more will rise to meet your expectations. Rarely, will they exceed them, so if you want excellence then you have to set that as a standard and hold them to it. However, to demand excellence, you have to demonstrate excellence.
I don't disagree - but there are the rare lost causes :(. But still the best approach to live by!
 
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boulderjohn I had to read this 3 times and I still may not understand what you are saying.
It's called ironic tone.

The review of school teachers is a major production that costs an enormous amount of money. It is a process that scuba cannot hope to approach because of the limitations of cost and time. Yet our school system still has poor and even pathetic teachers in abundance. What kind of a review process for scuba can surpass that in both scope and performance? How would such a system be put into place?
 
The problem is that no one does it.
So no instructor or dive operation owner/manager anywhere in the world provides any kind of mentoring to new professionals, even though the health of their organization depends upon quality performance?

I have to admit to being in awe. I had no idea you had that kind of breadth of knowledge. I could never profess to know what professional instructional relationships are like throughout the world because my own experience base is so very small. For me to challenge you, I would have to pretend to have far greater knowledge than I have, and do do so would be patently dishonest.
 
I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Part of me agrees with one of the expressed sentiments - it may not be best placed in 'New Divers . .', even though the initial post was aimed at that group. But, another part of me says, 'No. this is a discussion that people considering dive training will benefit from reading. It is a 'peek behind the curtain.'

Several points particularly caught my attention:

1. I think I understand Mike's points about instructors, about lack of performance reviews, etc. His comments seem to reflect a frustration that I share. I do see some Instructors who should not be allowed to continue teaching. Either they were never competent to begin with (and I am disappointed that they were allowed to instruct in the first place) or they have failed to maintain competence, motivation, whatever. They are relatively few in number, but they are out there. And it frustrates me. Students have a right to expect more / better. As an individual instructor, I feel an obligation to meet those expectations to the best of my ability. I know many instructors who feel the same way. But, I also know a few that don't. A prospective student may not know how to tell that before they start.

2. John also makes a good point about the challenges of assessing teacher competency. A lot of money is put into the process, and yet there are still teachers who shouldn't be teaching. I seriously doubt the scuba industry can do better, possibly not even as well. I have to do a FAA biennial flight review to maintain my privilege to fly. I approach it each time with both a bit of anxiety but also positive anticipation - I learn something from every flight review. But, I also encounter pilots who I think are incompetent putzes, and they apparently manage to pass the same process every two years, which makes me wonder about the effectiveness of flight reviews.

3. Over time, I have worked as an Instructor in 3 shops. I have never had anything approaching a proper performance review as a scuba instructor. Fortunately, in the shop I grew up in, the owner was passionate about teaching, passionate about promoting consistency among staff in teaching processes, passionate about adherence to standards, etc. and shared that passion with staff regularly. It was never done in a formal 'review' process, but it helped create a culture of excellence that still exists today among many of those staff members, 4 years after the death of the owner, and subsequent closure of the shop. I do believe that shop owners can, in fact must, mentor staff. However, I don't see enough shop owners / managers who actually have the skills to do that effectively. The good news - it is obvious that some do, and those are individuals who build and maintain very successful operations - they stand out like a bright light on a dark night.

4. I do not believe that I have ever yelled at or berated a student, in the manner Pete described in his initial post. However, I do adapt my teaching methods to the individual. One time I was conducting the OW dives for three teenage males. The Instructor who completed the CW training for the three told me that one of them might be a challenge - he had the attitude that he already knew how to do everything, did not take heed to instruction, he didn't listen well, etc. I decided to take what was - for me - a very atypical approach. I started out by stating formally - in front of the parents - that 'I am not your Instructor. I am here to evaluate you, on behalf of (agency name) to determine whether or not you should be granted certification as an Open Water Diver.' (I actually spoke with the parents in advance, and told them that I was going to take an approach during the class to capture and hold their attention.) During the first OW dive, on a couple of occasions, I also spoke sharply - not raising my voice, but speaking sternly - to the young man in question, in front of the other two students, e.g. - 'John (not his real name), that is not correct. You will have to perform the skill properly if you wish to be certified as a diver.' I intentionally took that approach to puncture his balloon of 'know-it-all-ism' from the outset. And, it worked, and he turned out to be a good student, and listener over the next three dives. Other instructors might have handled him differently, with equal success. I purposefully elected to 'get his attention' with that technique.

5. At the same time, I have thoroughly enjoyed working slowly and patiently with some divers who have anxiety (often, about the no mask skills - R&R, no mask swim, etc.). To see a student overcome challenges, to work through, and get past their fear, is a joy. And, I will take as much time as needed to help them. And, if they happen to be in a group class, I make every effort to move them into an environment where they can get the one-on-one attention they need, and deserve. They should be having fun. That doesn't mean there can't be some stress, and even fear, at times. Amusement park roller coasters are fun! Some riders have to work though anxiety, even fear, as the cars are inching their way up a steep slope, approaching that moment when they drop from the top, almost straight down. Most of the riders subsequently walk away with a huge smile on their face, laughing with each other about the experience. A very few walk away with a grim face and never ride again. That's OK. They have found that something - a roller coaster - is just not for them. We may not understand it, but diving is not for everyone. However, I don't want people to walk away with a grim face because an Instructor made it unpleasant. How many people would never take the roller coaster ride to begin with if the staff running the coaster started out by yelling to them to 'Hurry up! Get in the car and sit down! Be quiet and listen to this briefing or else. Get those hands inside the car, or they might get torn off during the ride! '
 
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However, I don't want people to walk away with a grim face because an Instructor made it unpleasant.
I wish I could hit "like" a zillion times just for this. The whole post was excellent: thank you.
 
Something to add. The whole post was based on a premise that "I don't want to out a bad instructor". Bullsh!t. Angie's list exists to out bad contractors, as do many State sponsored websites, at least in Florida. The BBB exists to out bad businesses. And to make oodles of profit, but whatever. Yelp and Tripadvisor exist to out hotels with bedbugs, restaurants with roaches, and tours that suck.

There is a clear and present need to out bad instructors. There always has been, but (IMO) part of the ditch that the scuba industry is in is the emphasis within the industry to make every diver an instructor. I can definitely see a need for a "Pete's List" hosted by ScubaBoard to rate instructors, training agencies, and boats.
 
Something to add. The whole post was based on a premise that "I don't want to out a bad instructor". Bullsh!t. Angie's list exists to out bad contractors, as do many State sponsored websites, at least in Florida. The BBB exists to out bad businesses. And to make oodles of profit, but whatever. Yelp and Tripadvisor exist to out hotels with bedbugs, restaurants with roaches, and tours that suck.

There is a clear and present need to out bad instructors. There always has been, but (IMO) part of the ditch that the scuba industry is in is the emphasis within the industry to make every diver an instructor. I can definitely see a need for a "Pete's List" hosted by ScubaBoard to rate instructors, training agencies, and boats.
I know someone who worked for a marketing firm. Companies hired that firm to improve their reputation. This person's primary job was going to review sites and writing positive reviews for the company that hired them and negative reviews for their competition.
 
I can definitely see a need for a "Pete's List" hosted by ScubaBoard to rate instructors, training agencies, and boats.
I think that Pete has mentioned before getting sued - or threatened with a lawsuit - over some comments made about some organization / shop / company on SB by a poster. It seems to me that creating such a list would open the door for more of that.

I agree that it is desirable for prospective students to have as much information as possible about what they might be getting into. But, we also live in a society where making negative information available opens the door for all sorts of issues - legal in particular. Frustrating but true.
boulderjohn:
This person's primary job was going to review sites and writing positive reviews for the company that hired them and negative reviews for their competition.
Wow! I had no idea. I guess it is not altogether surprising, now that you describe it. But the fact that it is a commercial enterprise amazes (and alarms) me.
 

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