Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[caruso]

I am rather odd. Good call.

The other difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong), your boat is commercially operated liveaboard? If so, do you state on your reservations page that customers must remove their shoes during their entire stay on your boat? If not, why not? Seems like it could be an unpleasant surprise for a diver to show up for a dive and be told "no shoes". I've got some foot issues and it's sometimes painful to walk barefoot and I for one would not appreciate being told this last minute and probably not being allowed to cancel, or being forced to reschedule with another dive op, or be forced to follow some odd rule in order to not lose my deposit or miss one or more dives.

 

[Wookie]

The other difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong), your boat is commercially operated? If so, do you state on your reservations page that customers must remove their shoes? If not, why not? Seems like it could be an unpleasant surprise for a diver to show up for a dive and be told "no shoes". I've got some foot issues and it's sometimes painful to walk barefoot and I for one would not appreciate being told this last minute and probably not being allowed to cancel, or being forced to reschedule with another dive op, or be forced to follow some odd rule in order to not lose my deposit or skip a dive.

I was, we did, and folks were encouraged to bring “house shoes” if they had podiatry problems. Many did. That boat is gone now and the new boat is not operated commercially.

The home page was a picture of the cat. Many folks don’t like cats, and we sure didn’t want them to be surprised. But you’d be surprised how some folks showed up and said “you mean you really have a cat?”

We still have the same cat. She likes boats.

 

[shoredivr]

Your survivorship bias is showing. Millions of dives have been made safely without SPGs, backup second stages, dive computers, BCs, gas analyzers, Nitrox, etc... Does that mean that there is no reason to use any of those things?

Note that the OP questions wasn't "is a pony bottle a necessity?". Not sure what the word necessity means in this context, since diving itself isn't a necessity....

It's pretty simple. For a good diver who is situationally aware and knows how to do gas planning, the pony bottle serves as a backup gas supply if you lose your primary gas supply due to equipment failure, or maybe if you meet someone who wasn't so good at gas management. That's it. It is a marginal but real increase in safety for the dive, assuming that you know how to use it.

I really don't understand why every one of these threads devolves into a discussion of how gas planning makes a pony unnecessary. That's not what it's for. It's not a firewall against poor gas planning on the part of the diver carrying it.

I will never plan my dive in such a way that I am totally dependent on my buddy. I have been diving long enough and in enough different situations to know that I need to be able to get myself safely to the surface without depending on anyone. That might be CESA for very shallow dives, or it might be a redundant gas supply.

In the CCR forums, there aren't posts about how bailout is unnecessary because of <lengthy discussion of gas planning and scrubber duration>. If you think that your OC gear is bulletproof because you take good care of it, you may get an unpleasant surprise someday.

Exactly.

 

[saxman242]

His boat, his rules. That said, I think a more effective rule would to just not invite that person any more. Removing gear doesn't solve a mindset problem.



So how much gas does one need to safely ascend from 80 ft with an o ring blow? A full al80 lasts maybe 60 seconds maybe if an o ring goes. From 80 feet, you're looking at a ~3 minute ascent without a safety stop at a reasonable ascent rate.

 

[caruso]

I was, we did, and folks were encouraged to bring “house shoes” if they had podiatry problems. Many did. That boat is gone now and the new boat is not operated commercially.

So they can wear shoes. Anyway we are getting far off topic. Thanks for the clarification though. Also you might want to update your profile page and remove the expired link to your old website which apparently no longer exists.

 

[Joneill]

We dive solo from my boat. Everyone is self-sufficient and has enough experience to know how to maintain their gear. If they did have an O-ring blow at 80 feet they would have enough gas to make it to the surface. We don't dive inside wrecks at 100 feet with an aluminum 80 as one poster wrote, and we don't wait until our tanks are low before getting shallow. By the time any of us are at 500-600 psi, we are either on our way up the anchor line or already back on the boat.

My no-pony policy is not aimed at making diving less safe. It is aimed at making it more safe by not diving with a security blanket attitude. We know before we get in the water that our gear works and will get us back safely. We don't cross our fingers and rely on extra gear. I also have a waiver for my friends to sign stating that they are aware of the inherent risks of diving and they understand the importance of well maintained gear. We're not a bunch of cowboys. We're simply photographers using the needed tools to allow us to find our subjects.

It's your boat so certainly your rules. I get the issue you had with guy who casually breathed down his main tank and then used his pony as extra air to surface with.

However, that is what not what responsible people use a pony for - it's there for an unplanned and unforseen emergency where a little extra gas might mean the difference between life and death or avoiding a chamber ride or not. You really need to stop focusing on one irresponsible diver's misuse of a pony and painting everyone else with the same broad stroke!

And while you say: "We know before we get in the water that our gear works and will get us back safely" - In reality, you have no way of knowing that is truly the case. Sh_t can happen that no amount of advanced planning can predict or eliminate - so it's not at all about crossing one's fingers and relying on extra gear. It's about one's personal comfort with the inherent risk in the sport and desire to minimize it with levels of redundancy.

Everyone's risk tolerance is different and, while a pony bottle may not be the worth the effort for you, it may be for others. Please stop trying to minimize it's value based on 1 bad diver you had you to deal with.

BTW - based on your no security blanket attitude, I guess you also don't let anyone on your boat dive with an octo either? Clearly, no one on your boat should never need it, so why carry that extra gear?

 

[doctormike]

The other difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong), your boat is commercially operated? If so, do you state on your reservations page that customers must remove their shoes? If not, why not? Seems like it could be an unpleasant surprise for a diver to show up for a dive and be told "no shoes". I've got some foot issues and it's sometimes painful to walk barefoot and I for one would not appreciate being told this last minute and probably not being allowed to cancel, or being forced to reschedule with another dive op, or be forced to follow some odd rule in order to not lose my deposit or skip a dive.

I have been diving with a number of commercial dive operators that insisted on people taking off their shoes at the dock, and I never was told about it when I booked. Not sure if it's standard, but it's definitely not just his boat.

On another note, Captain Frank was my solo diving instructor. Because of him, I now carry redundant shoes with me everywhere, in case my primary shoes fail. Three is two, two is one, one is none.

 

[Wookie]

So they can wear shoes. Anyway we are getting far off topic. Thanks for the clarification though. Also you might want to update your profile page and remove the expired link to your old website which apparently no longer exists.

It did link to the boat which is now owned and operated by Aggressor Fleet. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[doctormike]

So how much gas does one need to safely ascend from 80 ft with an o ring blow? A full al80 lasts maybe 60 seconds maybe if an o ring goes. From 80 feet, you're looking at a ~3 minute ascent without a safety stop at a reasonable ascent rate.

Yup! And you are lucky if it happens with a full 80. Not just because you have more air to make it to the surface, but because a full 80 implies that you are early in the dive.

If you are at 80 feet with 1000 psi and 0 NDL when your LP hose blows, not only does that mean only 27 seconds to empty, but a rapid ascent with significant inert gas loading.

 

[Wookie]

Yup! And you are lucky if it happens with a full 80. Not just because you have more air to make it to the surface, but because a full 80 implies that you are early in the dive.

If you are at 80 feet with 1000 psi and 0 NDL when your LP hose blows, not only does that mean only 27 seconds to empty, but a rapid ascent with significant inert gas loading.

Still better than tryna breath salt water.