Is dive certification really necessary?

[Gary_Ward]

I wonder what certification many of the fisherman on islands and coastal areas around the world have?

On the island I live on, most of the fishermen (scuba) have either no certification or have their PADI OW. Many of these guys get bent regularly, even ones that have been trained properly because they either don't listen or don't believe that "rules" apply to them (or both). Our chamber on the island is almost always in use with a bent fishermen, and in the past 5 years we've had 3 permanent paralysis and 2 deaths.... out of a population of maybe 30 local divers.

Experience in diving counts for a lot, so too does having someone more experienced around capable of giving you a slap when you're being a nugget.

 

[Gary_Ward]

Can I go out on a limb and say that your experience was the exception and not the norm?

I'd say you're being unfair to the majority of instructors out there. What we have to bare in mind is that we only really hear about the really bad divers and the really bad courses and the really bad instructors because they're what we all like to talk about.... but there are thousands of divers who get certified each week around the world (ok maybe not right now), who are well trained by a competent and diligent instructor...

Lets all please take a step back and not throw the baby out with the bath water. The statistics do not back up that the training system is failing. Yes they highlight there are issues, and we all have our own views on how issues are addressed (or not) with the training agencies, but I know for a fact that I and my team dedicate a lot of time and energy with all of our students when we're teaching them, going well beyond the minimum to ensure if they're capable of passing, they pass. Sometimes they may not pass the certification they were starting for (scuba diver vs OW diver etc), but to suggest a diligent experience is the exception as opposed to the norm is grossly over-dramatic

 

[Marie13]

Around here you can’t get fills without showing a card. Can’t dive at the quarries or off one of the Great Lakes charter boats without showing your card.

Most don’t have their own compressor or boat. Of course, there are places where you can dive where certs aren’t policed, but none are close to me.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The company that gave them a gas fill or rented them a cylinder without them being certified would likely get sued. I have never gotten a fill or rented a cylinder without being asked for my card unless they know me and have seen that card in the past.

I find you calling instructors shady to be a bit inflammatory for no good reason.

As for divers not being competent, I know of two people who have had to come back for additional dives due to them not understanding basic concepts.

Lots of people without certifications get tanks filled. Mobile airbrush artists, nail salons, hobbyists using portable compressed air, paint ballers, friends of divers getting fills for them, etc. there’s nothing that says you have to certified to get an air full, that’s up to the shop.
Shops can rent everything needed to go freediving without any certifications, they just won’t rent the SCUBA part.
Just call and ask any local shop in my area how many sets of gear they’ve lost or had to get back from the morgue because an ab diver croaked. We used to lose an average of 8 per year. I never saw any of them get sued out of business.
And I have plenty of very good reasons to call some instructors shady and incompetent. I have seen lots of stuff.

 

[CycleCat]

2. OW certification gives students just enough training to survive until they learn how to really dive by experience and/or AOW.

This comment from the end of the first page pretty much sums up this entire discussion.

I would have much preferred a self study and then test at some point,

That's pretty much what is happening with SSI training and, in the age of COVID, probably with everybody. When I signed up I was issued "digital learning materials" which consisted of about six units, each having about 6-8 sections and then a quiz at the end of each unit. I'm sure a lot of people barely glance at the material but my wife and I took it seriously and worked through everything, we completely reviewed it a second time, took the quizzes repeatedly, and researched on the internet to expand our understanding of the concepts brought up in in the materials (especially the science-heavy section with all the gas laws).

When we showed up for class, we spent 4 hours going over the same materials but with the opportunity to ask questions. After about 6 hours of pool skills over two days we went back to class for our final exam. Except for needing 4 open water dives to complete certification, we are done.

I look at the price of an OW class here (about $450)..... I see a market where they could do testing only for $150 and be a moneymaker for the shop, and a money saver for the student.

Maybe there needs to be a process where dive candidates can "challenge" the certification criteria. I manage a ski resort in New Mexico and all our ski patrol is OEC (Outdoor Emergency Care) certified. The OEC course is many weekends, intensive and expensive. We often have highly skilled applicants who are not OEC certified but they are EMTs, Army medics, etc. They are allowed to pay a small fee to take the OEC test and if they pass, they are OEC certified.

Similarly, dive candidates could take the written test and demonstrate basic skills necessary and be certified.

I dont like the idea, that people learn diving by themselfs.. I know most of the sb users would be able to do it, because of their Faszination about the sport, but most people will just hurt themselfs..

I don't think anyone should be entirely self-taught either. But maybe a mentor/apprentice system would work.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I find that I've learned and RETAINED more from reading and self study, than I did from my cert course.

I think there is a lot of value in @Eric Sedletzky 's idea has a lot of value. I look at the price of an OW class here (about $450)..... I see a market where they could do testing only for $150 and be a moneymaker for the shop, and a money saver for the student. Question becomes, who is the prospective student. A shop wouldn't rent to Joe Snuffy with no cert card.... so Joe Snuffy needs at least a friend with spare gear/a certification to get gear and tanks to train with. So that implies an available mentor to reiterate the critical safety stuff (don't hold your breath, don't ascend too fast, etc.).

I have a number of friends that I would happily lend gear, and time in my pool, to if this certification path became an option.

Respectfully,

James

Nothing would have to change as far as using your favorite instructor. If someone wants to get trained by a private instructor or a special scuba school great! They could also learn to dive from a parent, or a friend, or a dive club, or even on their own.
The final test and issuance of the certification would be done by a SEPARATE AGENCY that does testing only. After you learn the stuff you need to know at your pace and whatever avenue you choose, you set up an appointment at this testing facility and you go in for your written and in-water test. This way there is no collusion and no passing bad students by bad instructors passing everyone willy nilly.
The testing facility could have a hand book or materials online to study so you can study for the test.

I’m not necessarily against certifications, I just think they need to mean more than some of them mean now. Some certifications aren’t worth the plastic they’re printed on.

 

[Dubious]

My wife and I were just discussing this while driving to a dive site on Thursday. Specifically, we were discussing how Scuba differs from other extreme sports. We noted four differences. The first is for many extreme sports experience matters most. The second difference is the scuba industry's reliance on certification. Third, related to the first two, there seems to be a greater emphasis on your own liability in other extreme sports. Lastly, many extreme sports have difficulty rating systems so informed choices can be made.

I personally wonder if the dive industry reliance on c-cards makes the c-cardholder, other divers, and dive operators complacent. When I finished my PADI open water we were told we were now divers. With my shiny, new, official-looking c-card I could get fills, get on lake Michigan charters, and dive within the limits of the OW c-card. However, my wife and I left with our OW certification feeling ill-prepared to dive on our own. Recognizing this, the first half of our first season we only dived (dove?) with a divemaster during LDS fun dives or dived at "dive parks" sticking to the shallow dive platforms to practice skills. We knew our own limits, but based on what I have seen, not all divers do.

Now I have had some dive operators request to see my dive log before I could dive with them but this has not been the norm. I wonder if it should be the standard. The first time this became very apparent to me was the first time I dived with an instant buddy. The diver told me he had many years of experience while I was just certified for 4 months. He had talked about several of his trips after I told him I originally got certified for a trip to Caribbean before getting hooked. After doing our buddy check and taking the time to explain why I didn't have an octo hanging from my right side but instead had a safe second on a necklace we got into the water. We signaled down and before I knew it he sank to the bottom like a brick stirring up the fine sediment. I saw him grab his inflator and he shot back up. He then had the inflator over his head and came back down. I looked at him, most likely with a WTF expression, and signaled up? He shot to the surface. I did a 3-minute safety stop without him and then surfaced. I asked him what happened. He responded this was his first dive in a couple of years. I asked him if he wanted to do a weight check he said no. We went back down but he was flailing the whole time. In 15 minutes he exhausted all of his air. His AOW card and years of experience meant nothing for this dive.

Finally, with maybe the exception of cave diving, there really doesn't seem to be a difficulty rating skill for dives beyond depth. If there is I have not really come across it. This became much more apparent to me when I finally had the chance to dive into the clear waters of the Caribbean. Cold freshwater lake dives with limited visibility were much more taxing (difficult) than diving the clear warm waters of the Caribbean. That said the super clear waters also presented its own dangers. While the dive operator limited who could do a deep dive, the shallow dives sites varied in difficulty. While some sites remained shallow no matter where you ventured some were close to deeper waters. On one of our dives, a group of divers that just arrived to the resort ventured away from the divemaster and found themselves in over 100 feet of water (even though they had no clue). The dive briefing was to remain above 60 feet. I never heard a divemaster hit his tank so many times trying to get their attention. We watched the divemaster swim over to them and point to their counsel. Before we knew it one of the divers bolted to the surface, followed shortly by the other two. They all surfaced with 0 PSI. All three had been diving more many years.

While diving with a group of divers from our LDS, another diver who was PADI "master scuba diver" and pretty much had every c-card that the shop offered did not have basic control of his buoyancy. While he had many dives logged they were mostly certification dives from all of those c-cards he had. Now this was not an issue for some of the dives, but I was uncomfortable diving with him on the deep wall dive. My wife and I opted to skip that dive because I thought he was a liability.

I guess my point is that based on the short time I have been diving, the c-card is given more weight than experience. This is unfortunate and seems to be in contrast to other extreme sports.

 

[JamesBon92007]

And where the new diver is from and with what water experience is a factor. Someone who grew up on the sea, surfing, bodysurfing, free dive spearing will have more comfort in the water (in general) than one from the midwest having swam in pools or lakes.
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Good point.

When I took my original scuba course they had two options: you could do your ocean dives locally, at the beach or, if you were wealthy (I was 16 and poor) you could get on the boat and do your ocean dives at Catalina Island. So, even though both groups of divers learned in Southern California, the boat divers didn't necessarily have a clue about going through the surf, which is demonstated by the quantity of dive gear that washes up on the beaches when the tide comes in. I don't see how any OW or AOW course could cover all the possibilities. I did feel, however, that after taking my scuba course (in '69) I felt like I knew enough to know when I didn't know something and to find out before doing something that I might not live to regret. To me it's just common sense to ask the locals about diving conditions when you go some place new, but have witnessed tough guys renting gear who seemed determined to become immortalized in the Incidents forum. Here on SB a lot of people seem to think that the number of dives you have somehow prepares you for the unknown. I don't see how 500 dives in a quarry is going to help you get through 8 foot surf with riptides. Knowing how to surf and/or body surf makes all the difference.

 

[JamesBon92007]

You need a cert if you think you need one. I’ve never thought I needed one so I don’t have one.

I told my girlfriend that she should get her AOW when she needs to. So far nobody has told her she can't do a dive because she is only OW.

 

[boulderjohn]

Finally, with maybe the exception of cave diving, there really doesn't seem to be a difficulty rating skill for dives beyond depth..... I guess my point is that based on the short time I have been diving, the c-card is given more weight than experience. This is unfortunate and seems to be in contrast to other extreme sports.

Years ago I tried to set up a rating system for cave diving similar to a scale used in rock climbing, but I got exactly zero interest from any of the experts I tried to get to help me. I eventually set up a scale of sorts for all dives in basic overhead environments and got PADI to approve it for my distinctive specialty Understanding Overhead Environments, but the only people who have ever seen it are the handful who have taken the course.

There is a very good reason that certification cards are given more weight than experience when it comes to doing more advanced dives. In other extreme sports (rock climbing, skiing, riding mountain bikes down canyon walls, flight suits, whatever), the participant is on his or her own to do the activity and make judgments about the difficulty relative to ability. If I go skiing, the ski map warns me that certain trails are double black diamonds, but it's my decision if I think I am ready for that, and it's all on me if I am not. With most diving, a professional operation is involved, and there is a potential for a lawsuit if they allow you to do a dive for which you are not prepared.

Given that, why not go on experience rather than a certification card? Here is why.

1. Tell me that I have to have a certain number of logged dives to do a dive I want to do, and they have to be at a certain level, and if I don't have those dives, I can produce a logbook saying I do in very short order. If I wanted, I could log a series of dives on the Andrea Doria as soon as I am done typing this. I could make them very impressive.
2. If you are using experience, you cannot easily identify an objective measure. That means one of your employees is going to look at a log book and make a decision. In the case of a lawsuit, that employee's decision will be challenged in court. "Why did you think that many dives was sufficient?" "How did you determine that those logged dives were actually done?"
3. If the operation instead uses a specific certification card for specific dives, then there is no decision to be made and no decision to be challenged in court. If the diver turns out not to have the skills the C-card would indicate, that is on the instructor who issued the card or on the diver for letting skills lapse over time, not you. In the famous Gabe and Tina Watson case in Australia, Gabe claimed that as a NASDS Rescue Diver, he could take care of his newly NASDS-certified wife and did not need a checkout dive. Later investigation indicated that the actual instruction both had received from the same instructor was shaky at best.
4. Similar to #2, if the operator sets up its own standards for judging ability, those standards must be adhered to. In the case mentioned in #3, there was no local law requiring a checkout dive, but the dive operator had required checkout dives as a policy. Because it waived that policy because of Gabe's Rescue Diver certification, it violated its own policy and was fined for it. If it had not had a policy of checking a diver's ability and had just gone on the certification card, it would not have been fined.