Not a huge fan of my GoPro

[bvbellomo]

BTW - here is my best GoPro footage:

People are posting that it should do a "decent job" with links to tips and images/videos that aren't much better. I don't want anyone to get the impression all I got was pictures of my thumb and videos of my shoes and underwater videos so bad you can't tell what they are even of - although I got those too.

 

[Robbyg]

It's a pity but there is only two levels when it comes to underwater photography.
You use a GoPro which is simple cheap and takes half assed pictures or you spend thousands of dollars on a proper DSLR and housing plus a dozen other things.
Photography is a Hobby of mine but I am not sure if I want to take a Nikon D500 and all that gear down into the water. It may make for much better pictures but my dive is not going to be all that enjoyable.

 

[bvbellomo]

No because you need to stop down more for your wide angle shots with full frame. If you are macro only you are a lot closer with the strobe and can get away with less light output. Flash exposure is set solely by aperture at any given ISO, but ISO increases are limited by your maximum sync speed. For wide angle you would be f2.8 on the TG-6, f5.6 for a 1"sensor (G7X) and f11-16 for full frame. So you need 4x+ the light output for full frame compared to 1"sensor camera.

Also if you are shooting wide, you don't aim the flash at you subject like you do on land, you skim light on the edges to try to minimise backscatter and a single strobe would struggle to illuminate a really wide scene. I couldn't imagine hauling a full frame rig half way round the world and sticking a single underpowered strobe on it unless it was dedicated macro shooting. The compacts even with most wet wide lenses don't have the angular coverage that interchangable lens cameras do, so lighting is easier and a single strobe is more feasible - though two strobes is still better.

If you are worried about packing you'll have a housing regardless, the G7X housing would be much smaller and won't have separate ports (macro port and dome port) you need to pack, the camera it self will fit in your coat pocket. So extremely minor difference in size to a TG-6 but more capable for wide angle work and significantly better images. I shoot a m43 olympus system with separate domes/macro ports and two strobes it is quite the task to get it all ready and get it into the water and setup the shots UW and swim around with it - based on your description of your diving preferences I wouldn't think you'd want that level of effort for your photos. I really suggest you go to an UW store and see what's involved in housing your a full frame camera and check the size of what you'll be transporting around the place.

This seems like one of the more informative posts, but I don't fully follow it. Does "ISO increases" mean a higher ISO or a better (lower number) ISO?

I thought maximum sync speed limited the fastest I could shoot with a flash, depending on the opening and closing of the sensor. It makes sense opening and closing takes longer for a physically larger sensor, but I'd also assume more expensive cameras had faster moving parts. So I might be able to shoot 1/500th of a second with one camera and no faster than 1/100th with another. But longer exposures should lead to lower ISOs and better images, so this really only limits my ability to get a clear picture of a really fast moving fish. What am I missing?

I understand a wider scene is going to benefit more from multiple strobes and something farther away is going to look better with brighter strobes. But I am assuming I am comparing the same field of view and same scene with both cameras.

It makes sense that something with interchangeable lenses is going to need a bulkier and more complicated housing. But wouldn't a G1XIII be almost the same size and complexity as a TG6?

 

[Darnold9999]

If you plan to use anything for still photography light is essential. The pictures you can get without a strobe will not even come close to the ones you will get with one. The only pics you will get that will compare are wide angle of things a fair distance away. Everything else will be significantly better with a strobe.
No matter what you decide to get, budget for at least one strobe. My first camera was a Sealife entry level with one strobe. Did the first dive with it without the strobe as I wanted to see how it worked and test everything out - second dive was with the strobe. Never dove without the strobe again. The difference was that dramatic.
Moved to a Nikon D200 with a single strobe and had the strobe die halfway through a liveaboard trip. Learned how to manage ambient light, but the pics from the second half of the trip were crap compared to the first half.

 

[bvbellomo]

The best TG6 underwater photos I've found so far are by Ron Winkler:
Under water

While these are miles ahead of my GoPro, they aren't the sort of quality I'd print and hang on my wall.


Compare that to Jacob Loyacano's work with a G7XII:
Corals, Sponges, UW Scences

From a technical point of view, Jacob's images, while still noticeably behind the best DSLR pictures I've seen, are about half way between those and Ron's.

 

[Barmaglot]

It's a pity but there is only two levels when it comes to underwater photography.
You use a GoPro which is simple cheap and takes half assed pictures or you spend thousands of dollars on a proper DSLR and housing plus a dozen other things.

This is demonstrably false. There are plenty of brilliant photos taken with 1" compacts and even smaller sensor cameras such as the old Canon S-series and Olympus TG. I've even seen some macro photos that I simply cannot take with my APS-C ILC due to depth of field limitations.

This seems like one of the more informative posts, but I don't fully follow it. Does "ISO increases" mean a higher ISO or a better (lower number) ISO?

I believe Chris is referring to balancing flash exposure in the foreground with ambient exposure in the background. Basically, if your strobe(s) are struggling to light the foreground, you can increase the ISO, but this will also brighten the background - to cancel that out, you need to increase shutter speed. Imagine that you're shooting a ten-foot sea fan, with blue water in the background. You take a position maybe 4-5 feet away from the fan, set your camera to ISO 100, aperture f/5.6, shutter speed 1/200, dial your strobes to maximum and take a shot. Water is fine, but the sea fan is not. Your strobes are already at maximum, so you need to take in more of their light. You raise the ISO to 200 (one stop), but this overexposes the water. You can stop down to f/8, but this will also affect the foreground, placing you right where you started. Therefore, the solution is to raise the shutter speed to 1/400, which will darken the ambient-lit background but leave the flash-lit foreground as it is. Note that most interchangeable-lens cameras with curtain shutters can only sync strobes at speeds between 1/160 and 1/250, with some being able to manage 1/320 and the recent Sony A1 reaching 1/400 in full-frame mode and 1/500 in APS-C crop. Compact cameras with leaf-type shutters usually don't have this limitation, and Sony RX100 series will happily sync all the way up to 1/2000, although at this speed, you are cutting out a significant amount of strobe light as well.

Thanks, so SeaFrogs gets me $670 for TG6 or or roughly $750 for a G7XIII if I can live with an "Inbuilt leak detection sensor" instead of vacuum. This seems like the best option.

SeaFrogs also makes a G1X housing, is that a good option?

The leak detection sensor tells you that the water is in the housing; by this point, it's usually already too late, so its usefulness is somewhat limited. I don't dive my housing without vacuum, and it has saved me from very expensive incidents numerous times.

I don't know why, but I have never seen or heard about anyone diving with a G1X, or, for that matter, G5X. The G7X series is enormously popular, and I have seen the older G16 used quite a bit, along with the older G9 (without the X) and S-series (S95, S100, S110). G9X is not used underwater for obvious reasons (touchscreen controls), but I don't know what issues with G1X series keep it from widespread underwater use.

Please keep in mind that an underwater camera is a system, and this system is only as good as its weakest part - when you have a significant bottleneck somewhere, the whole will be less than the sum of its parts. Getting just the camera and the housing will not produce results much better than your GoPro. Take a look at my Instagram at @bmekler - the first dozen or so images were shot with LEDs or natural light, then cheap SeaFrogs strobes, and the recent stuff I've been posting is with Retra Pros. The camera body is the same throughout.

 

[bvbellomo]

I believe Chris is referring to balancing flash exposure in the foreground with ambient exposure in the background. Basically, if your strobe(s) are struggling to light the foreground, you can increase the ISO, but this will also brighten the background - to cancel that out, you need to increase shutter speed. Imagine that you're shooting a ten-foot sea fan, with blue water in the background. You take a position maybe 4-5 feet away from the fan, set your camera to ISO 100, aperture f/5.6, shutter speed 1/200, dial your strobes to maximum and take a shot. Water is fine, but the sea fan is not. Your strobes are already at maximum, so you need to take in more of their light. You raise the ISO to 200 (one stop), but this overexposes the water. You can stop down to f/8, but this will also affect the foreground, placing you right where you started. Therefore, the solution is to raise the shutter speed to 1/400, which will darken the ambient-lit background but leave the flash-lit foreground as it is. Note that most interchangeable-lens cameras with curtain shutters can only sync strobes at speeds between 1/160 and 1/250, with some being able to manage 1/320 and the recent Sony A1 reaching 1/400 in full-frame mode and 1/500 in APS-C crop. Compact cameras with leaf-type shutters usually don't have this limitation, and Sony RX100 series will happily sync all the way up to 1/2000, although at this speed, you are cutting out a significant amount of strobe light as well.

Then this is really subjective, and not enough to plan a camera purchase around - at least not for lower budgets. A Sony RX100 will let me chose between a detailed, clear image of the sea fan against a black background, or a detailed clear image of a sea fan against a detailed, clear image of a reefscape. Some people might prefer the former, some might prefer the latter. An EOS M6 won't let me choose unless I spend $10,000 on strobes, I'll be stuck with the clear background, but all my other photographs will be night-and-day better.

The leak detection sensor tells you that the water is in the housing; by this point, it's usually already too late, so its usefulness is somewhat limited. I don't dive my housing without vacuum, and it has saved me from very expensive incidents numerous times.

Any boat I've been on has a barrel of water to test and rinse cameras. A leak at this point probably means going a dive without the camera, but camera would be fine once it dries. A lot depends on the camera - my 5D isn't waterproof, but has been soaked several times and is fine. But I have lost other camera's to water damage from a lot less water. I'd think if there was no chance to save a camera with a leak, they wouldn't bother with the sensor. The cost of losing a camera really isn't much more than the cost of upgrading a camera.

Please keep in mind that an underwater camera is a system, and this system is only as good as its weakest part - when you have a significant bottleneck somewhere, the whole will be less than the sum of its parts. Getting just the camera and the housing will not produce results much better than your GoPro. Take a look at my Instagram at @bmekler - the first dozen or so images were shot with LEDs or natural light, then cheap SeaFrogs strobes, and the recent stuff I've been posting is with Retra Pros. The camera body is the same throughout.

Yes, but the way to build a system is to start with the best components you absolutely need, then spend money adding on - rather than spreading your budget thin and wanting to upgrade everything you already bought on your 2nd trip. This trip, I will have a camera, a housing and a strobe. Next trip, I may add lenses, more strobes, better strobe's etc - but I don't want to be in a situation where I am upgrading my camera body and housing next trip. Unless maybe I should just buy good strobes this trip and use them with my GoPro.

I also think the type of shot has a lot to do with what you need. With just natural light and a good camera, I still believe I could take professional looking shots - as long as it was early morning or late evening, shallow clear water and a wide reefscape scene.

I do think your natural light photos are much better than my GoPro, although I could be wrong if I were able to see them in higher resolution.

 

[bvbellomo]

I don't know why, but I have never seen or heard about anyone diving with a G1X, or, for that matter, G5X. The G7X series is enormously popular, and I have seen the older G16 used quite a bit, along with the older G9 (without the X) and S-series (S95, S100, S110). G9X is not used underwater for obvious reasons (touchscreen controls), but I don't know what issues with G1X series keep it from widespread underwater use.

I came across this:
PowerShot Shootout: Canon's G1 X III vs G7 X II

Apparently the low light performance of the G1 X III isn't so great. With the cameras now being almost the same price and the G1 housing being half the price of the G7 if I want vacuum, the G1 still is worth considering. Any idea if the traditional flash horseshoe on the G1 is worth anything underwater? Is this even an option with the housing?

 

[arew+4]

Go with a TG-X, you won't regret it, I used to lug around a Nikonos V and all the trappings, all the creative freedom I could afford. With 40+60 hours of photogenic bottom time a year, I took lots of pictures, but "missed" a lot of dives.

First time in the water with the TG-5 housing flooded do to defective o-ring was still able to use the camera for the rest of the trip limited to 45'.

Get neutral, get close, leverage daylight. This thing fits in your pocket. I'll be shooting it in the housing with an Inon D200 in Coz this June.

 

[Barmaglot]

A Sony RX100 will let me chose between a detailed, clear image of the sea fan against a black background, or a detailed clear image of a sea fan against a detailed, clear image of a reefscape. Some people might prefer the former, some might prefer the latter. An EOS M6 won't let me choose unless I spend $10,000 on strobes, I'll be stuck with the clear background, but all my other photographs will be night-and-day better.

No, this is incorrect. No camera in the world will give you good images underwater without strobes, period, forget about it. The high flash sync speed afforded by compact cameras is situationally useful, generally when you're shooting directly into the sun, but my Sony A6300 is limited to a relatively slow 1/160 and I don't find it to be a significant issue.

The comparison in the review that you linked is on land, in low light, with wide-open apertures and high ISOs. This is almost without exception irrelevant underwater, as you're shooting with strobes, at base ISOs or close to that, and with a significantly stopped down aperture.

The flash hotshoe can be used to mount an LED trigger, in order to fire strobes with a pair of LEDs rather than the pop-up flash. This enables burst shooting (provided your strobes can keep up with it; my Retra Pros with superchargers can sustain 3fps at half power, but they're eye-wateringly expensive) and saves camera battery life, but costs an extra $500 or so.

Any boat I've been on has a barrel of water to test and rinse cameras. A leak at this point probably means going a dive without the camera, but camera would be fine once it dries. A lot depends on the camera - my 5D isn't waterproof, but has been soaked several times and is fine. But I have lost other camera's to water damage from a lot less water. I'd think if there was no chance to save a camera with a leak, they wouldn't bother with the sensor. The cost of losing a camera really isn't much more than the cost of upgrading a camera.

The cost of losing a camera is also, quite often, lost opportunity. Imagine yourself on a 10-day liveaboard to Galapagos, or Fiji, or Bikini, or whatever, and your camera floods and dies on day 2. Now you've got a trip that you've spent ~$10k on, your camera is dead, and a replacement is a couple thousand miles away.

Yes, but the way to build a system is to start with the best components you absolutely need, then spend money adding on - rather than spreading your budget thin and wanting to upgrade everything you already bought on your 2nd trip. This trip, I will have a camera, a housing and a strobe. Next trip, I may add lenses, more strobes, better strobe's etc - but I don't want to be in a situation where I am upgrading my camera body and housing next trip. Unless maybe I should just buy good strobes this trip and use them with my GoPro.

The bare minimum is a camera, housing, tray, arms, clamps, lanyard, single strobe, fiber optic cable and batteries/chargers for everything. You won't be able to shoot wide, and unless you get a TG-x, you won't be able to do macro either. GoPro cannot use strobes at all; it has no way to trigger them, and even if it did, it has no mechanical shutter to sync with them.