If you could change one thing about dive training...

[Blackcrusader]

I think most of the explanation I got was that hands were less effective for propulsion and that advanced divers usually don't use their hands. That's a rather useless explanation.

Instructors telling you to only ever use your legs is nonsense.
I was given 4 limbs so I will use 4 limbs when necessary.
Using your hands for propulsion instead of legs can be very useful.

 

[SlugLife]

Instructors telling you to only ever use your legs is nonsense.
I was given 4 limbs so I will use 4 limbs when necessary.
Using your hands for propulsion instead of legs can be very useful.

I should be somewhat fair, I haven't had many instructors, and my instructors mostly glossed over the issue without saying much. I expect that they were following the SSI curriculum, with little deviation, at least for that portion of the class, and didn't want to deviate too far (not sure if that could affect their ability to teach).

I just felt I would have benefitted more if they had explained what I just stated. That it's not "wrong" to use your hands, and it can be useful. However, if you practice not using your hands and learn some finning techniques instead, you should be a LOT better off long-term, because if frees your hands for other things.

Speaking of which, none of my in-person classes or SSI online training has talked about finning techniques. I have however gotten some online-training from sidemounting.com, they have a few finning videos in their free section. My frog-kick & helicopter-turn sucks, but at least I know it and am improving.

 

[ginti]

I should be somewhat fair, I haven't had many instructors, and my instructors mostly glossed over the issue without saying much. I expect that they were following the SSI curriculum, with little deviation, at least for that portion of the class, and didn't want to deviate too far (not sure if that could affect their ability to teach).

I just felt I would have benefitted more if they had explained what I just stated. That it's not "wrong" to use your hands, and it can be useful. However, if you practice not using your hands and learn some finning techniques instead, you should be a LOT better off long-term, because if frees your hands for other things.

Speaking of which, none of my in-person classes or SSI online training has talked about finning techniques. I have however gotten some online-training from sidemounting.com, they have a few finning videos in their free section. My frog-kick & helicopter-turn sucks, but at least I know it and am improving.

I am a bit confused. Are you saying that finning techniques have more advantages than hand propulsion techniques (maybe apart from some rare cases) and that divers should train mainly on using fins? And, at the same time, instructors should explain well the advantages of finning techniques?

Or are you saying that scuba courses should teach much more hand propulsion techniques because they are ok and efficient?

 

[SlugLife]

I am a bit confused. Are you saying that finning techniques have more advantages than hand propulsion techniques (maybe apart from some rare cases) and that divers should train mainly on using fins? And, at the same time, instructors should explain well the advantages of finning techniques?

Or are you saying that scuba courses should teach much more hand propulsion techniques because they are ok and efficient?

I didn't say either. However, (1) I don't see any reason to focus on hand propulsion techniques and (2) if my Open Water class (or any class) taught finning would have helped me greatly (3) explaining the advantages of finning techniques without actually teaching them would have been silly.

Some programs (like SideMounting.com) out there focus heavily on finning, but all of the in-person classes (SSI) I've taken so far don't instruct finning techniques.

 

[ginti]

I didn't say either. However, (1) I don't see any reason to focus on hand propulsion techniques and (2) if my Open Water class (or any class) taught finning would have helped me greatly (3) explaining the advantages of finning techniques without actually teaching them would have been silly.

Some programs (like SideMounting.com) out there focus heavily on finning, but all of the in-person classes (SSI) I've taken so far don't instruct finning techniques.

The OW/AOW etc. courses of today are designed for vacation/occasional divers, who are 90%** of divers, and this is perfectly fine. However, vacation divers do not have the time either the dedication to learn difficult techniques.

If you are so interested in mastering scuba diving techniques (and here I am not speaking only about propulsion), it means that you have a genuine curiosity and interest in this activity, which is cool! But it would help if you looked for different products. Specifically, some tech-oriented instructors/courses; scuba-board is full of suggestions in this regard; you just need to search

**This number comes from my fantasy; I have no idea of the real proportion, but I am rather sure it is a vast majority.

 

[ginti]

Instructors telling you to only ever use your legs is nonsense.
I was given 4 limbs so I will use 4 limbs when necessary.
Using your hands for propulsion instead of legs can be very useful.

People from the "old" school, even the young one, like you are, are usually more trained than today divers. But this higher quality training gives you a bias: you guys often think that divers of these days should have the same training as yours.

The reality is quite different. Nowadays, there are two kinds of divers:
(1) vacation/occasional divers, who spend little time on training and diving;
(2) dedicated divers, who often go to tech or, at least, refine their techniques up to the same level of tech divers.

Rec courses are for divers in the group (1), and since there is not much dedication in this group, agencies MUST optimise time. It isn't straightforward to learn propulsion techniques, so a more optimal approach (in terms of time consumption) avoids teaching them. Because of this reason, instructors tell people to stick to the most basic ones and to "never use your hands".

There are other reasons not to use hands in the vast majority of situations (as always, there are exceptions) and some advantages of having the hands almost always free. Because of this, even the most tech-oriented courses do not teach hand propulsion, at least at introductory levels.

I am not saying that I agree with this way of thinking. I believe you know that I favour the GUE approach, which strongly focuses on finning techniques starting from introductory courses. But you guys should take these considerations into account if you want to be constructive.

P.S. @BLACKCRUSADER , although I quoted you, this post is directed to everyone, not specifically to you; I just took the occasion to answer because you brought that point

 

[Wibble]

Instructors telling you to only ever use your legs is nonsense.
I was given 4 limbs so I will use 4 limbs when necessary.
Using your hands for propulsion instead of legs can be very useful.

Except when your hands are occupied; controlling a reel, BCD, CCR, putting up a bag, camera, torch, ascending with other divers, holding a stop...

Generally when I see people using their hands it's because they're not particularly exuding competence in their core skills.

 

[scubaozy]

You are told not to use hands for propulsion because it is not efficient. Why burn more air?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Instructors telling you to only ever use your legs is nonsense.

A diver cannot be certified as a cave diver if they use their hands for propulsion or stability.

 

[boulderjohn]

A diver cannot be certified as a cave diver if they use their hands for propulsion or stability.

When I was taking basic cave training in a high flow area, I waved my hand once for stability, and my cave instructor made that very, very clear. Never did it again.

I have a lot of trouble understanding why you would want to use your hands on a typical OW, recreational dive. I barely use my fins. On a typical reef dive, I usually give a gentle frog kick, take a look at things as I do the recovery stroke slowly, and then give another kick. I am not usually in any sort of a hurry on a dive, and gentle kicking is all I need.

As others have said, probably more than 90% of divers are interested in vacation dives for which the basic flutter kick is perfectly fine. There is no reason for them to be taking valuable class time learning highly advanced kicks. That can come when they take a more advanced class where such kicks will be important.