Brand Advice for BCD/Regulators/Tanks?

[lowwall]

A few notes...

First a terminology discussion. SPG means Submersible Pressure Gauge. It only refers to the gauge that shows you how much gas (air) you have left. A "console" is a housing for an SPG on a hose that is combined with a computer and/or a compass. The word Console also refers to the whole set of gauges and the housing. A standalone SPG on a hose is just called an SPG.

The alternative to a console is a wrist-mounted computer and, perhaps, compass.

Most shops supply consoles during training not because it's better, but because it makes it easier for them to keep track of all their equipment. Most experienced divers use wrist-mounted computers and compasses because it's more convenient and more streamlined.

There is no such consensus among experienced divers on AI computers versus the standalone SPG. My suggestion would be to start with the much less expensive and slightly more reliable option of the standalone SPG. If you decide to switch later, you can bring your SPG with you on trips as a backup if your transmitter fails (swapping hoses and transmitters attached to your first stage is very simple). Your original computer can also act as a backup. A lot of people will use two computers when they go on dive vacations, because a dead computer may mean missing out on multiple dives.

Also at the beginning, your money is better spent on doing more diving than on expensive gear.

Next, new versus used. I'm going to recommend new gear, at least for the regs/BC/computer, for the new diver who doesn't have experienced divers around to guide him or her through everything. Especially if you'll be working with a local shop. The warranty and relationship with the shop will be very helpful for questions about setup and use and if there are any problems. But if the shop has used gear for sale and will service it, that is fine. Save money by going with more basic gear. The people who dive the most tend to use pretty basic regs and BCDs (or BP/W). They do tend to splurge on computers, but that can definitely wait.

I've already given you advice on the regs, except that you do want the same quality octo as your primary second stage. And to note that adjustable second stages don't work the way you think they do. The adjustment is only to avoid freeflow, it should be wide open when it's in your mouth unless it starts freeflowing, in which case you dial it back slowly until it stops. The octo can be set a little harder to avoid spontaneous freeflow if it's face forward in a current. Again, if you dunk a second stage mouthpiece up into the water, it should freeflow. Stop it by turning it over or putting a finger over the hole your breathe through.

I strongly recommend a basic backplate/wing setup. But if you do get a standard BC, keep in mind that less is more. Extra padding, extra air cells, extra D-rings, and large lift capacity all make it harder to move through the water and mostly require extra lead. You should be looking at the cheapest and simplest back inflates available. Or watch some videos on backplate/wings and get one, it really is a superior setup for most divers.

 

[SubNeo]

I should also probably clarify, I intend to do Nitrox soon and my tentative route would be Advanced -> Rescue. Also, I just recalled my instructor dove backplate, he was having fun with the crotch strap and cracking jokes about it. I have absolutely no experience in backplate at all at this time, but the idea of having the back held on a bit more firmly intrigues me.

I'm probably going to ask a bunch of questions and see how they explain the "types of regs," and "BCD" concepts once I get my cert card from the shop today, and I've got a good week or two to do some homework further before I make decisions on equipment. I'm hoping to more or less try to keep care of my kit and let this be the "one time purchase" so to speak.

I've bought some new regs, but not the shiny-shiny oooh, look at that, refreshingly expensive tosh. I like the simple ATX40 second stages: cheap and work really well. The twiddly know adjuster thing isn't needed and nobody tunes it down. I like the Apeks DS4 or DST first stages (DSTs you wait for second hand!) for my stage/bailout/deco cylinders. DS4s are really cheap if you buy them in the right places. I did buy a second-hand pair of Tec3's for backmount, but had those serviced before use.

So essentially don't allow them to sell me anything more than a $600 Mares reg set or whatever else they market. The shop seemed pretty chill and didn't give me that "used car salesman" feeling, I'm sure they would be upright. The guy I bought my mask from actually told us never to spend $150 on a mask and said there is absolutely no reason to do so, no matter what gimmick the seller uses. I also haven't ever assembled hoses on a first stage, but I'm sure it's not tricky.

It's kind of a pet peeve of mine how the scuba industry milks newbies. OK, that's commerce for you and it's exactly the same for any hobby; cycling, sailing, you name it. From experience I know that you don't need to spend a fortune on the "latest" "new" "version" as it's just the same old same old stuff recycled. Titanium... no. Special big fins... no. Just reliable old stuff that works and you see on technical diving boats.

I'm sure I'll find it, but I do not want to find the line between "affordable" and "safe" the wrong way. I feel like aiming at buying "entry level rec equipment" (at least BCD/Reg/Computer) shouldn't set me back too hard, especially since I'll be holding warranties and can later decide changes if I specialize. I do think Nitrox is the only real "tickbox" I would want to hit on a computer.

The shop would be able to simplify this as they can presumably service brands that they sell. Generally, mixing brands of regulator, BCD, and computer is not a problem at all. It is usually advisable to have the regulator 1st and 2nd stages all the same brand. This simplifies servicing.

Yeah their main guy has 700+ logged dives. I'm sure they wouldn't steer me wrong. My primary issue with the mask at this time is I breathe bubbles out with the force of a waterbender.

You can definitely stay way south of 4 digit price tags for a wrist computer. 4 digit is the norm only when talking about wireless air integrated wrist computers. In non-AI, you can definitely do much better. If I were buying a wrist computer as a new diver, I’d give the Shearwater Peregrine a lot of consideration. Easy to use with an easily readable screen, and lots of adjustability.

Saw there was a debate over AI vs algorithm based computers, but I imagine I don't need to worry at this time over it. I see Shearwater and Suunto a lot in the threads, so I imagine they would be "reliable" hah. Do wrist mounted computers come with compasses integrated, or would the idea be to "replace the pressure part" of the console and just attach a 2-gauge console for compass and tank pressure?

Also at the beginning, your money is better spent on doing more diving than on expensive gear.

I'm keeping inside my budget mentioned earlier and would love to try to even stay under 2k if possible. But I am flexible to go up a tad, this is the (for the most part) equipment I would prefer to use and service from here on out.

Next, new versus used. I'm going to recommend new gear, at least for the regs/BC/computer, for the new diver who doesn't have experienced divers around to guide him or her through everything. Especially if you'll be working with a local shop. The warranty and relationship with the shop will be very helpful for questions about setup and use and if there are any problems. But if the shop has used gear for sale and will service it, that is fine. Save money by going with more basic gear. The people who dive the most tend to use pretty basic regs and BCDs (or BP/W). They do tend to splurge on computers, but that can definitely wait.

Yeah that was my plan. I wanted to have a bit of a game plan figured out for the regs/BC/computer(or console), but intended to just buy those. I don't have the experience yet to want to mess around with older equipment (unless the shop was servicing and testing it, they wouldn't want to sell broken stuff to someone new... I hope).

I've already given you advice on the regs, except that you do want the same quality octo as your primary second stage. And to note that adjustable second stages don't work the way you think they do. The adjustment is only to avoid freeflow, it should be wide open when it's in your mouth unless it starts freeflowing, in which case you dial it back slowly until it stops. The octo can be set a little harder to avoid spontaneous freeflow if it's face forward in a current. Again, if you dunk a second stage mouthpiece up into the water, it should freeflow. Stop it by turning it over or putting a finger over the hole your breathe through.

Yeah makes sense, would you recommend I make both second stages adjustable? A fully opened or closed knob could still be "breathed from" in an emergency correct? I don't want my buddy shooting me a death glare if he has to be fumbling around with it should the emergency ever occur.
So more or less, the "way the regs breathe" stems down to the brand of the second stage (and the quality of the hoses)? I know they can be swapped out as needed as my instructor did with the loose Mares reg.

Also thx again for all the help, fingers crossed there comes a day when I can actually help someone else. A lot of this stems from me wanting to make absolute sure I stay both safe and fiscally smart with my initial purchases. My type A nature will suit me very well with dive planning and logging (which ironically I was never taught to do in my open water course).

 

[lowwall]

If you go with Mares, I wouldn't bother getting adjustable seconds. The whole system allows for precise tuning that rarely needs to be adjusted between services (low first stage IP swing during a breath and over changing tank pressure, second stage lever height can be adjusted separately from the cracking pressure). The factory specs call for a slightly higher cracking pressure on the octo to make it less likely to freeflow. It still breathes fine. I switch off between primary and octo at some point on every dive for the practice and to double-check that the octo is working correctly.

They literally only added adjustments to some of their second stages because a lot of buyers assume that more knobs means better quality. Evidence of this is that in their tech diving line, the XR line, they offer 4 second stages and only one of them has external adjustments. And that one is mostly meant for stage or deco bottles that you want to be absolutely certain won't freeflow even if it's hanging off you while you are riding a DPV at 3 knots. BTW, the XR second stages are the same as the following standard seconds except for the cover plate: Dual, Dual Adjust, Loop and Abyss. The fact that they use a version of the Dual in their technical line should tell you it's more than good enough for recreational diving.

Hoses don't make any difference as to breathing characteristics. The braided ones are nice, especially out of the water, because they are more flexible and lighter while the traditional rubber coated ones are cheaper and last longer.

The primary difference in how well a reg breathes is how well it is adjusted aka tuned. Secondary is the reg design, which does vary by brand. Although the second stages of most brands including Apeks, ScubaPro, Atomic, AquaLung, HOG, Deep6, have the same basic design (pressure balanced with the parts in a barrel configuration inside the reg body). The big exceptions are Mares and Poseidon. Mares require slightly more effort to start the inhalation than the standard design, but then the effort drops very low for the rest of the breath, and they do away with the need to fiddle with adjustments. Poseidon's have very different breathing characteristics, but they are expensive and somewhat uncommon on the US so probably not what you want to start out with.

 

[Belzelbub]

Saw there was a debate over AI vs algorithm based computers, but I imagine I don't need to worry at this time over it. I see Shearwater and Suunto a lot in the threads, so I imagine they would be "reliable" hah. Do wrist mounted computers come with compasses integrated, or would the idea be to "replace the pressure part" of the console and just attach a 2-gauge console for compass and tank pressure?

I think you are combining debates. That’s OK, we do have a lot of debates here.

There is a debate about AI vs non-AI computers. It’s really just a personal preference. The main benefit of AI is that you have all your info on the computer, plus, it also tracks consumption real-time. Wrist mounted AI computers use a transmitter mounted on the first stage to send pressure data to the computer. Many brands (Shearwater, Aqualung, Oceanic…) use the same pressure transmitter, so if you change brands in the future, you could use the same transmitter. Other brands (Suunto, ScubaPro, Garmin) use proprietary transmitters that will only work with that same brand.

There is also debate about algorithms. All computers are algorithm based. The debate is around which algorithm. Some algorithms are real conservative, others quite liberal. Most have a few different presets to adjust the algorithm. Most computers use a proprietary algorithm, usually based on a common algorithm, but tweaked in some way known only to the manufacturers. Others run Buhlmann or another open source algorithm. The benefit is that the algorithm is well understood, and you can even run planning software on your home computer using the same algorithm as your DC. Buhlmann also has gradient factors. That is for later, but essentially allows for custom conservatism adjustment.

Some wrist mounted computers do come with a compass, others don’t. My SW Perdix does have a compass, but I never use it. I have a wrist mounted compass that I use instead. The Peregrine, for example does not have an electronic compass.

Most computers these days are reliable, but some manufacturers have a better track record of taking care of customers when there are issues than other manufacturers. Any computer is capable of providing the diver with real time data in an effort to keep the diver safe. However, no computer can guarantee that the diver won’t have issues. The algorithms are a prediction only, they are not a window into what is actually going on.

Also, another important thing to consider is that some computers will lock out after something it didn’t like. That essentially means the computer will not function as a computer until after a set number of hours (25, 48). Sometimes they lockout for a deco violation, but some will lockout if the user changes mode (air to Nitrox) between dives. The first makes some sense, the latter doesn’t.

As for regulators, there are really only a few things you need to know:
Piston vs. Diaphragm. This refers to the type of 1st stage. Technically, a piston regulator will flow more gas than a diaphragm, but in the real world both are capable of flowing way more gas than would ever be needed.
Balanced vs. Unbalanced. Both 1st and 2nd stages. You want balanced. An unbalanced reg will breathe differently as tank pressure decreases.
Environmentally Sealed vs. Non sealed. This is primarily the 1st stage. The moving parts of the 1st stage are protected from the water. If the regulator is a piston type, sealing involves filling with an expensive grease, with a diaphragm sealing is much simpler. The primary benefit is to prevent icing when using in cold water. A secondary benefit is that particles or salt can’t get to the moving parts. 2nd stages of sealed regs aren’t sealed, but they usually incorporate a heat sink to prevent icing.

 

[SubNeo]

If you go with Mares, I wouldn't bother getting adjustable seconds. The whole system allows for precise tuning that rarely needs to be adjusted between services (low first stage IP swing during a breath and over changing tank pressure, second stage lever height can be adjusted separately from the cracking pressure). The factory specs call for a slightly higher cracking pressure on the octo to make it less likely to freeflow. It still breathes fine. I switch off between primary and octo at some point on every dive for the practice and to double-check that the octo is working correctly.

Yeah that adds up, I breathed a lot better on the Scubapro (maybe it was a 200?) one they swapped me to over the Mares. It just felt like a lot of work to get a breath on the Mares, which was not the way my pool dive should have started.

I was looking at the Peregrine, it was what my instructor dove for the checkout dive(s). Seems like a pretty good deal and the company seems well liked. I saw some complaints about issues getting the data onto a PC for logging, but otherwise seems solid.

Makes sense, so Florida diving (not a chance of ice lol) would have me going balanced and sealed. I guess the "trial and error" would be checking the piston vs diaphragm feel out.

 

[Marie13]

I could never get my Perdix to connect to my MacBook, so I’ve always just used the mobile app on my iphone. Works fine. You need to have the mobile app for software updates, anyway.

 

[lowwall]

I think you are combining debates. That’s OK, we do have a lot of debates here.

There is a debate about AI vs non-AI computers. It’s really just a personal preference. The main benefit of AI is that you have all your info on the computer, plus, it also tracks consumption real-time. Wrist mounted AI computers use a transmitter mounted on the first stage to send pressure data to the computer. Many brands (Shearwater, Aqualung, Oceanic…) use the same pressure transmitter, so if you change brands in the future, you could use the same transmitter. Other brands (Suunto, ScubaPro, Garmin) use proprietary transmitters that will only work with that same brand.

There is also debate about algorithms. All computers are algorithm based. The debate is around which algorithm. Some algorithms are real conservative, others quite liberal. Most have a few different presets to adjust the algorithm. Most computers use a proprietary algorithm, usually based on a common algorithm, but tweaked in some way known only to the manufacturers. Others run Buhlmann or another open source algorithm. The benefit is that the algorithm is well understood, and you can even run planning software on your home computer using the same algorithm as your DC. Buhlmann also has gradient factors. That is for later, but essentially allows for custom conservatism adjustment.

Some wrist mounted computers do come with a compass, others don’t. My SW Perdix does have a compass, but I never use it. I have a wrist mounted compass that I use instead. The Peregrine, for example does not have an electronic compass.

Most computers these days are reliable, but some manufacturers have a better track record of taking care of customers when there are issues than other manufacturers. Any computer is capable of providing the diver with real time data in an effort to keep the diver safe. However, no computer can guarantee that the diver won’t have issues. The algorithms are a prediction only, they are not a window into what is actually going on.

Also, another important thing to consider is that some computers will lock out after something it didn’t like. That essentially means the computer will not function as a computer until after a set number of hours (25, 48). Sometimes they lockout for a deco violation, but some will lockout if the user changes mode (air to Nitrox) between dives. The first makes some sense, the latter doesn’t.

As for regulators, there are really only a few things you need to know:
Piston vs. Diaphragm. This refers to the type of 1st stage. Technically, a piston regulator will flow more gas than a diaphragm, but in the real world both are capable of flowing way more gas than would ever be needed.
Balanced vs. Unbalanced. Both 1st and 2nd stages. You want balanced. An unbalanced reg will breathe differently as tank pressure decreases.
Environmentally Sealed vs. Non sealed. This is primarily the 1st stage. The moving parts of the 1st stage are protected from the water. If the regulator is a piston type, sealing involves filling with an expensive grease, with a diaphragm sealing is much simpler. The primary benefit is to prevent icing when using in cold water. A secondary benefit is that particles or salt can’t get to the moving parts. 2nd stages of sealed regs aren’t sealed, but they usually incorporate a heat sink to prevent icing.

Great post. The minor quibble I have is about balanced versus unbalanced second stages. While it is true that an unbalanced first stages will get harder to breathe as you go deeper and the tank empties, this does not happen with second stages. The only difference between balanced and unbalanced second stages is the latter requires a slightly higher spring pressure that has to be overcome at the start of the breath. Venturi assist makes the increased effort go away as soon as the air starts flowing.

In other words, I wouldn't get an unbalanced first stage, but would not necessarily avoid an unbalanced second. It sounds like the OP is likely to get either Atomic or Mares. All Atomic first and second stages are balanced. All of Mares diaphragm first stages are balanced (i.e. everything except the R2), none of its second stages are balanced.

 

[lowwall]

Yeah that adds up, I breathed a lot better on the Scubapro (maybe it was a 200?) one they swapped me to over the Mares. It just felt like a lot of work to get a breath on the Mares, which was not the way my pool dive should have started.

I was looking at the Peregrine, it was what my instructor dove for the checkout dive(s). Seems like a pretty good deal and the company seems well liked. I saw some complaints about issues getting the data onto a PC for logging, but otherwise seems solid.

Peregrine is very nice if it's in your budget. But a Mares Puck Pro or AquaLung i100 or Oceanic Geo 2.0 (closeout pricing) are all acceptable if you need to save $300.

Don't base your reg decision on a badly adjusted rental reg. The worst performing reg I ever had was a rental ScubaPro. That doesn't tell me anything about ScubaPro regs, although it might tell me something about that dive op.

If you are buying in person (instead of online), ask them if they'll have their tech test it to make sure everything is within factory specs. The best shops will do this automatically. If you express interest, they may even let you watch the process.

 

[SubNeo]

Don't base your reg decision on a badly adjusted rental reg. The worst performing reg I ever had was a rental ScubaPro. That doesn't tell me anything about ScubaPro regs, although it might tell me something about that dive op.

If you are buying in person (instead of online), ask them if they'll have their tech test it to make sure everything is within factory specs. The best shops will do this automatically. If you express interest, they may even let you watch the process.

What is the best way to figure out which reg is best? Do shops let you rent them for a day and try them in a pool? I didn't outright decide I don't want Mares, but if they have some solid and reasonable Atomic I might elect to start with those.

 

[Belzelbub]

I was looking at the Peregrine, it was what my instructor dove for the checkout dive(s). Seems like a pretty good deal and the company seems well liked. I saw some complaints about issues getting the data onto a PC for logging, but otherwise seems solid.

You won’t go wrong with the Peregrine. It will be a long time before you outgrow it. If, and that’s a big IF, that happens, you can get a Perdix or Teric and keep the Peregrine as a backup. There have been some issues with connectivity, mostly with Windows machines. I use a Mac, and it’s pretty much been flawless. Certain versions of the Shearwater Cloud app worked better with certain MacOS versions. The iPhone app has been flawless. I primarily use Subsurface, but keep Shearwater Cloud on hand for firmware updates.

Makes sense, so Florida diving (not a chance of ice lol) would have me going balanced and sealed. I guess the "trial and error" would be checking the piston vs diaphragm feel out.

Balanced definitely. Sealed is optional. Sealed protects against icing which is not an issue for FL. If you get a diaphragm reg, there really is no reason not to go sealed. I’m a FL diver as well, and use sealed diaphragm. It makes cleanup a lot easier as I simply spray down the first stage on a tank. No need to soak (another debate on here). If the reg you choose is a piston 1st, then there may be a reason to go unsealed as the cristolube that does the sealing is pricy and needs to be replaced at each service.