9 year old diving?

[GCullen94]

Doesn't matter if it is your kids or not this is just another way around the standard. None of the instructors I work with would do this and everyone of them made their kids wait until they were much older than 10 to take OW. Just because they are physically able to do it doesn't mean they should. I still can't be convinced that a 10 year old can understand NDL's, DCS, O2 limits etc. Everybody on here always preaches that a diver that is fresh out of their open water class should be able to plan a dive and execute that plan? Most 10 year olds can't plan their dinner.

I agree with DD on this one... at 40 feet there the NDL is anything from 120 to 160 minutes depending on what tables/algorithm you use, there is almost no risk of DCS, no issue with O2 limits, there are only two issues I can see one is is ascending too fast. That is simply taught by go slower than your slowest bubbles. 2 is monitoring gas, which should be monitored by their buddy (a fully certified adult who should be able to keep track of this so it should be a non-issue.) Jr. Ow divers are diving with a fully certified adult who plans the dive, the jr. will pick up on dive planning so that when it is time to plain their own dives they can without issue.

 

[SOFDiver]

I have read through all the posts, and it seems clear that there is a wide range of opinion on this subject so I will add my two cents. First, I have to admit that I learned to dive when I was ten years old, but that was 55 years ago. My "Instructor" was an uncle who learned to dive while in the Navy during WWII, he was not an "official" instructor by any means. I can't say how mature I was as I can't remember that far back.

I have spent most of my life as a trainer, first in the Army and then in the corporate world. Training is performance based unlike education, at the end of a course of training the trainee/student must be able to perform specific tasks, under specific conditions to an established standard. As a NAUI instructor I have established tasks, conditions and standards than comprise my Scuba Diver Course (all NAUI Scuba Divers are Open Water divers). I personally will not accept 10 year olds as trainees/students, I will accept 12 year olds in most cases. I do not promise any student a C card, but I do commit to working with them until they meet all standards or find that diving is not for them. Every student no matter if they are 10 or 90 must meet the same standards. This includes all academic and performance standards. Trainees/students under the age of 15 receive a Junior Certification, 15 and above get a Scuba Diver (OW) certification. So in short, the 10 year old must be able to do everything both physically and intellectually as a 15 or 30 year old would be able to do. I don't try to train 10 year olds because almost none of them can meet the established standards, while I find most 12-14 year olds can with some extra work and effort on my part. I have taken quite a bit of heat from parents of prospective 10 year old trainees/students because I would not take on their children or refer them to someone who would. But, I have also gotten positive feedback from parents, who after looking at the realities, elected to wait to have their children begin training. I guess I am lucky that I don't have to depend on how many people I train to pay my bills, and that my skin is thick enough to take flack from angry parents who can't handle any form of rejection. One thing I do feel good about is that each one of my divers is competent and confident in their abilities when I hand them their C card.

 

[Slowrise]

My son got certified last year when he was ten (in fact the reason I got certified was to be with him in the class). He is a big kid and managed the physical portions well (we got certified in dry suits), and he did really well on the theory. We then went in to dive in warm waters, and I think he is responsible and safe diver, given his age and experience. He's also super obsessive about safety protocols and staying within limits and plans.

But. Given what I know now, I would not have let him be certified. If something had happened in the first couple of dives after certification there is no way of knowing what would have happened. You might argue that the same is true for an adult diver, but there is a huge difference in the awareness of risk, and the risks of diving are so much more abstract than those of for example skiing. Of course I was also too inexperienced to realise this at the time.

on the other hand, kids do learn quickly, and we went through our first 15 dives together (I also did the AOW immediately after OW in order to get some more time in water). Now I'd say he's comfortable within the the limits we've set - shore dives in order to control descent and ascent, good conditions, sheltered etc - but again, the ocean would still have been there for him at 15.

 

[iluvtheocean]

setting the limits is good.. lots to see & do on shore dives. i'd rather have someone obsess about safety and diving the plan than the opposite.
a child diver and an adult diver are definitely different. number 1 is the adult is responsible for his/her own self, a child not so. it is harder for kids to get abstract concepts & dangers until they are older.. especially boys. lets face it, even if they think they are being super careful - they still think themselves invulnerable especially after they become teenagers.

one scenario that comes to mind esp with shore dives --- does he know what do to if for whatever reason if he forgets to turn on his air or just cracks it on and doesn't realize it until after in the water deeper than one can touch? and i basically mean -- doesn't panic and reaches back & cranks it on. not an unheard of situation especially on an early morning dive. I've done that a couple of times if i've not had any coffee beforehand ;P What would we do without coffee?? it was a big part of the industrial revolution..
so shores dives are good practice for different scenarios..

 

[Frosty]

My take on matters is that a JUNIOR open water licence was created for a reason.To me that reason is recignition of the issues outlined above.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

I remember when I got my first guitar at 14 and my father told me I was too old to ever be really good at it. I remember hearing Eric Clapton got his first guitar at 13 and I thought I'm one year too late.

In my dreams, I am a fleet fingered guitarist. But I also have dreams about being a sea lion.

Starting young is how you get to be good at stuff. Skiing, motorcycle racing, shooting, gymnastics......and water sports. Once you're in your late teens it's too late...

That said, you have to balance the risk of brain lesions and other pressure effects against the desire to participate. Snorkeling would be a good start.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

---------- Post added September 25th, 2013 at 06:03 PM ----------

I would not certify somebody else's 9 year old (even a day short), because if it came out that I was breaking that standard it could come into question what other standards am I breaking. I would loose all credibility in a court of law.

I had an employee certify a child diver in a non-diving nitrox class - PADI came down with a swift fist on that one. It is a hard and fast rule. Although, scuba in general is a lot of shades of grey.

Now, I know some operations will ask for a birth certificate to prove age. I do not. I think talking to the kid directly, one can sometimes assess if they're relatively mature.

If they drop the standards - which I believe they will; if there are any betting men in the room that would like to wager, I'm open - I would certify a 9 year old that I personally approve to begin training.

I have certified 10 year olds that were so bright and so strong (some bigger than an average 15 year old and scored 100% on every quiz and exam), they would put adult divers to shame and some instructors too. And then, children shine in the water. Children of any age, however, warrant special attention. Classes are much smaller, although never private. And children have to be limited to depth. No research is available to know how nitrogen accumulation affects their growing bodies.

My biggest problem with child divers is that their brains cannot fully understand the concept of consequence. Although, this applies to all young adults, the brain won't grasp this concept until roughly the age of 25. For this, hard and fast rules are necessary for children to follow. If you give kids an inch, they take a mile.

 

[bilsant]

My biggest problem with child divers is that their brains cannot fully understand the concept of consequence. Although, this applies to all young adults, the brain won't grasp this concept until roughly the age of 25. For this, hard and fast rules are necessary for children to follow. If you give kids an inch, they take a mile.

That is the most insightful and cogent observation I've heard so far. It also applies to a lot of parents.

I won't take your wager, but I truly believe that age limit is strictly a business decision based on the balance between the certifying agencies' desire to profit from an increased market vs. concerns of losses due to liability...and I've never won money betting against the profit motive.

 

[bergersau]

I have certified 10 year olds that were so bright and so strong (some bigger than an average 15 year old and scored 100% on every quiz and exam), they would put adult divers to shame and some instructors too. And then, children shine in the water. Children of any age, however, warrant special attention. Classes are much smaller, although never private. And children have to be limited to depth. No research is available to know how nitrogen accumulation affects their growing bodies.

My biggest problem with child divers is that their brains cannot fully understand the concept of consequence. Although, this applies to all young adults, the brain won't grasp this concept until roughly the age of 25. For this, hard and fast rules are necessary for children to follow. If you give kids an inch, they take a mile.

Well put Jill.

This is why the "JUNIOR Open Water certificate" exists. The restrictions on the "Junior OW" certification require the junior to be accompanied by a certified parent or guardian or instructor and have depth restrictions.

The job of a parent is at all times to supervise and keep safe their children as they develop. Sometimes this means taking a firm stance when the potential consequences are unacceptable such as during activities like diving where risk taking has serious potential consequences. Other times more latitude is allowable and even desirable so kids can learn from making their own decisions and errors when the consequences of those errors are tolerable.

My 9 and 11 months old son is keen to learn to dive, and I have found that my local instructors won't train him until he's 12yo regardless of the PADI 10yo minimum. I'm OK with that, and he know's he'll have to wait, despite the fact that he can outdistance me in the water now and has been snorkelling for some years. Once he does get certified I will be supervising his diving and making sure he's on top of the planning and safe execution side of things also. He'll be expected to plan (with assistance) and exercise leadership on dives and also to call me out if I do something stupid or not to plan. My job will be to ensure that the site, conditions and dive plan are all consistent with our mutual capabilities and ensure our safe return. As a teenager he'll inevitably want to push the envelope, that's normal and to be expected. As he matures physically, mentally and in experience I'll need to balance the needs of safety (conservatism) and development. I'm looking forward to the challenge.

By the time he gets to full "Open Water" I intend that he won't be just another brain dead follower on the boat. I want him thinking and actively questioning the actions and decisions people he's with - and not just while diving. He's going to need to learn to navigate his way through life dealing with issues like driving, drinking, peers with drugs and God knows what else. I't my job to equip him with the life skills to do that and come through intact and undamaged.

 

[tstormdiver]

Although I can understand the OP's eagerness to have his son join him diving, there are set ages for different activities, ie.,,, driving (16 yrs), being consider a legal adult (18yrs) or using alcohol & tobacco products (21 yrs). Look at it as a right of passage. The age limits are set by the RSTA, which sets the "umbrella standards" of the other different training agencies. In the past few years, SSI (I assume under the RSTA) has really reduced what we can do with juniors under 12. The student to instructor ratios have been reduce to 2:1 & no extras,... even with certified assistants. One of the draw backs to being an instructor in a shop affiliated agency, is I don't have a lot of say in who is accepted into the class, unless there is a glaringly obvious reason why, that I can push back with against the shop. However, as was mentioned above, the course is performance based. If a student, regardless of age, can not perform the skills comfortably, repeatedly & show the appropriate maturity needed to dive, I simply will not recommend them to go on to Open Water. I have only made that mistake 1 time as a newer & inexperienced instructor & it will never happen again. If a child proves not to be mature enough to dive, 99% of the time the parent is either also going through the course or is already a diver & can see the evidence for themselves & will either pull the child out of the class or with some discussion, decide it is best for their child to wait. To date, I have never had a parent who wouldn't listen when I mention that my decision is based on the child's safety.

 

[flots am]

One of the draw backs to being an instructor in a shop affiliated agency, is I don't have a lot of say in who is accepted into the class, unless there is a glaringly obvious reason why, that I can push back with against the shop.

That's just the shop owner and has nothing to do with SSI. You can certainly refuse anybody you think wouldn't be safe.

flots