Tipping

[george_austin]

A single day of boat diving to Catalina from Los Angeles - 3 tanks - is about 120 - 130 dollars now. That's the same fare it was 20 years ago and the industry is struggling to put divers on boats. Imagine the fare at 150-170.00 which it what it should be considering fuel and associated costs. The industry would completely collapse instead of partially collapse which is what we have now. Now imagine fares at 220-250.00 with paid deckers and DM's . . . and that's just the baby diving for "beginners" and hobbyists to the front side of Catalina. Imagine an advanced multi day trip to the outer islands with wrecks and other deep, advanced stuff.
Might as well just book a trip to Cozumel or Bonaire or something where you're going to be almost guaranteed excellent conditions with good vis and warm water.

 

[Lorenzoid]

A single day of boat diving to Catalina from Los Angeles - 3 tanks - is about 120 - 130 dollars now. That's the same fare it was 20 years ago and the industry is struggling to put divers on boats. Imagine the fare at 150-170.00 which it what it should be considering fuel and associated costs. The industry would completely collapse instead of partially collapse which is what we have now. Now imagine fares at 220-250.00 with paid deckers and DM's . . . and that's just the baby diving for "beginners" and hobbyists to the front side of Catalina. Imagine an advanced multi day trip to the outer islands with wrecks and other deep, advanced stuff.

Since I don't earn more than I did 20 years ago, I'm glad dive prices have lagged behind, too.

 

[J322Y]

A single day of boat diving to Catalina from Los Angeles - 3 tanks - is about 120 - 130 dollars now. That's the same fare it was 20 years ago and the industry is struggling to put divers on boats. Imagine the fare at 150-170.00 which it what it should be considering fuel and associated costs. The industry would completely collapse instead of partially collapse which is what we have now. Now imagine fares at 220-250.00 with paid deckers and DM's . . . and that's just the baby diving for "beginners" and hobbyists to the front side of Catalina. Imagine an advanced multi day trip to the outer islands with wrecks and other deep, advanced stuff.
Might as well just book a trip to Cozumel or Bonaire or something where you're going to be almost guaranteed excellent conditions with good vis and warm water.

Using $125 in 1997 dollars (USD) the same goods/services should cost about $190 (53% inflation). However that uses the government's Consumer Price Index which notoriously understates inflation.

 

[billt4sf]

It seems we can all agree that the whole tipping thing is (like many other issues) out of control in the US, and not a problem elsewhere (except where Americans bring in their US attitudes).

- Bill

 

[Pkishino]

Just to put into perspective :
I help out my buddy who owns a rib, we do dive trips here in southern Sweden, mostly day trips (2 or maybe 3 dives if it includes one seal dive) but this summer we managed to lease the island of the state where we usually stop over. Now we have reopened the hostel, setup new compressor etc etc to facilitate diving. So we test ran a few weekend trips, usually 1 or 2 nights including three meals. We ran 5 groups with 2 nights and 1 group with 3 nights. For this we charge converted to usd:
Single day 110 USD +any rental (tanks, gear etc)
2 day 315
3 day 440
On top of this guests pay extra for nitrox, gear rental, alcohol but at least for the overnight trips as many dives as they want are included.
We do this mainly for fun and for next year is already starting to fill up most weekends from may onwards. None of us expect or want tips, this is a side thing for me and just another hobby for my friend who runs /owns the boat.
Anyone who tried to tip me (one guy tried because I had been so helpful he said) I kr them this is just a hobby and no need, I would refuse.. Tax reasons etc..
Anyway, as mentioned above, the kind of service we provide is standard, even if we do try our best to stand out with all kinds of useful and helpful extras.. All included

 

[Pkishino]

Oh, and for the prices, this is cheap here in Sweden

 

[elmo]

Tipping for diving is something I'd never heard of in Australia, New Zealand or the parts of Asia where I've dived. A customer I'd guided or assisted with on a course once bought me a beer afterwards. Does that count as a tip?
As a customer/tourist myself, I'd like to think that employees anywhere are paid a decent wage, and I'm happy to pay a fair price for service. "But they get tips" is no excuse for not paying staff decently. I sometimes tip for food, but if tips make up a major portion of staff income, something is wrong.

 

[Clark Fletcher]

I just don't get the "working only for tips" thing. What is this person's status? Not an employee. Not an independent contractor for the dive op. Not someone we divers have hired directly. Is the person an "unpaid volunteer"? A dive operation isn't a charity, which is where we typically see "unpaid volunteers." No, as far as I can determine, the agreement between the dive op and unpaid helpers leaves the unpaid helper as basically a hobbyist who does what he does primarily because he enjoys it. If it were otherwise--if there were truly enough demand for this person's valued services--then we would be charged for it, either by the person directly or through the dive shop. I would be glad to pay whatever the cost for whatever the total amount of services I receive, but I'm not going to use "tipping" to pay someone what should be the fee for his services.

Not knowing the specifics of this particular arrangement, one can only speculate.

It's a small dive op and they really need more than just the DM and Captain to handle a charter but, perhaps couldn't afford to pay the deck hand. So, they may have come to some arrangement that was mutually beneficial to both.

The DM for this dive op is older and perhaps the deck hand is simply working for tips until the current DM retires and he steps into that position as a full employee.

It may have even been just for that particular trip. We only had four divers that day. I don't think they wanted to go out with such a small group but, our guy convinced them to take us out anyway. With such a small group, the dive op may not have been able to afford to pay the Captain, DM, and a deck hand. It could be that the deck hand receives full paid if it's a bigger group. I think this boat can handle at least 12-15 divers. Again, no idea how they came to this particular arrangement and none of my concern. I guess if I were a dive op owner it might be something I cared about.

Regardless, as I've been told by my instructor, tipping is customary on dive boats here in the US. How those tips are disturbed amongst the crew is none of my business. It's also none of my business if someone else decides to tip or not tip or how much they should tip if they choose to do so. I choose to tip. And, I do so based on whether the service provided goes above and beyond what I expect, is simply adequate, or is woefully inadequate. I can tell you from experience, a tip that the service provider considers an insult sends more of a message than no tip at all.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It's a small dive op and they really need more than just the DM and Captain to handle a charter but, perhaps couldn't afford to pay the deck hand. So, they may have come to some arrangement that was mutually beneficial to both.

Shouldn't the "arrangement" be that the dive op pays the deckhand, and passes the cost on to you by charging a little more? This is how I understand it works in the rest of the world. Why not here? (Several posts already have provided some insight as to why not.) That's sort of the discussion I was trying to open.

With such a small group, the dive op may not have been able to afford to pay the Captain, DM, and a deck hand. It could be that the deck hand receives full paid if it's a bigger group.
I think this boat can handle at least 12-15 divers.

There are all kinds of fixed costs like this, such as fuel. The boat uses the same amount of fuel regardless of how small the group of divers it takes out. One would suppose that a business with fixed costs tries to predict and average these fixed costs over many trips, so that in the end they earn a profit. Why should the deck hand's pay not be included along with fuel and other fixed costs?

Regardless, as I've been told by my instructor, tipping is customary on dive boats here in the US. How those tips are disturbed amongst the crew is none of my business.

I agree it's customary in the US, and so long as it remains so, I play by the rules of the game and tip the customary amount. In restaurants, as mentioned above, it's not just "customary" but baked into how the system works, because the server's wages anticipate customers will tip a certain percentage. The tax laws keep the system working this way.

I only consider it "my business" to the extent that I would like to see the system change to the way it works in most other parts of the world, where people are paid what their services are worth according to supply and demand, and any "tip" a customer decides to leave really is just that. I can't change the world, or even the US, but I can try to keep conversations like these going if others are similarly interested.

 

[FuAn]

Shouldn't the "arrangement" be that the dive op pays the deckhand, and passes the cost on to you by charging a little more? This is how I understand it works in the rest of the world. Why not here? (Several posts already have provided some insight as to why not.) That's sort of the discussion I was trying to open.



There are all kinds of fixed costs like this, such as fuel. The boat uses the same amount of fuel regardless of how small the group of divers it takes out. One would suppose that a business with fixed costs tries to predict and average these fixed costs over many trips, so that in the end they earn a profit. Why should the deck hand's pay not be included along with fuel and other fixed costs?

And this is exactly where the system ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY work in the favor of the business owner! Not in favor of the employee because he has an unreliable source of income, not the customer because he gets LIED at in terms of a upfront, fair, honest pricing.

I agree it's customary in the US, and so long as it remains so, I play by the rules of the game and tip the customary amount. In restaurants, as mentioned above, it's not just "customary" but baked into how the system works, because the server's wages anticipate customers will tip a certain percentage. The tax laws keep the system working this way.

I only consider it "my business" to the extent that I would like to see the system change to the way it works in most other parts of the world, where people are paid what their services are worth according to supply and demand, and any "tip" a customer decides to leave really is just that. I can't change the world, or even the US, but I can try to keep conversations like these going if others are similarly interested.

That being said I'am the last person who does not gratuities if great service was provided and this is what it should be.

On top I sense two other issues.
One is the general assumption of US based guests that this is how it works elsewhere in the world as well, in the US they expect everyone else to adjust to their system but they refuse to educate themselves about what is customary elsewhere in the world, 15-20% of trip cost in Indonesia x 16 guest divided by 16 crew on a one week trip is more than the guys monthly salary...
On a recent trip, the trip pre information suggested 10-15% of trip price, the discussion among the guest what might be appropriate started at around 200$, quickly someone suggested 300$ until at the end someone said he'd put in 400$. At the last day everyone had an envelope with name written on and a letter on his cabin suggesting 15-20% tip to be given to the captain. There you go you had a tip bidding war going on on the boat topping out at around 25% of the trip price and the pressure of the named envelope to be handed in. And business owners know that ad they abuse it.
The crew was great no doubt and they deserved a nice tip but suggesting 15-20% is not gratuities its a dishonest price and lying towards the customer.
That being said if a business would advertise with fair and upfront cost and wages I'd pay the premium and still give a tip if great service was provided. But as in terms of pricing in the US a) customers with their swipe the credit card mentality do want to be lied at about prices and b) law usually works mostly only for those on the top barely for the end of the food chain...