20% of coral reefs dead

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archman:
Monotype viral outbreaks occurring on mariculturally-cultivated species represent the very simplest of research environments. It's essentially a big laboratory experiment. Scaling up for even partial wild ecological surveying... you're talking about well over an order of magnitude of both cost and staffing. And I know those Taura studies weren't cheap. Monotype mariculture ops are not conducive to natural viral evolution, either. Expect to see a heck of a lot more strains in the wild. It's not the presence of waterborne viruses in the water column that is damaging to other organisms, but the abundance of particular strains. Viruses are a natural constituent of the nano/pico-plankton, and have always been so. It's frequency and intensity of bloom outbreaks that are alarming. Mariculture ops by their very design are a virus strains dream come true, representing environs that should only very rarely occur in nature. The same ecological parameters that go into a mariculture operation are those indicative for habitats that have recently suffered near-complete ecological catastrophe, or an extreme environment. You need a very low species diversity. Plant farms operate the same way. For both, disease is very much a valid concern. One does not normally encounter such systems in the wild.


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I agree that viral infection is not THE cause of the reef devastation. It may or may not be a factor but I'd never heard it mentioned before so I thought I'd throw in my observations of how uncontrolled species movement across the globe was the biggest factor in spreading viral infections.
I'm not sure I agree with your statements on virus in cultured systems vs wild etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that you're saying mutation doesn't occur in the wild as it does in cultured systems. What about HIV? Are people in a cultured environment? or wild? And since there is little to no long term viral studies done on wild occuring species, theorizing that they don't mutate as fast in that case is mere speculation. The only viruses that are studied long enough to draw conclusions are mainly human born.
I DO agree with you that coral reef (as well as rain forest) environments are so complex that about all we can do is speculate. Who knows? This die off since 98 El Nino may be like a small forest fire. The reefs may come back stronger than we're seen before. I would love to sit and discuss this kind of topic with you. It's too hard over the Internet. thanks Archman. Hank
 
Hank49:
I'm not sure I agree with your statements on virus in cultured systems vs wild etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that you're saying mutation doesn't occur in the wild as it does in cultured systems. What about HIV? Are people in a cultured environment? or wild?

Actually I thought that AIDS was originally in a very specific environment - the gay scene and needle users. Viruses seem to learn quite fast though.......now it's hetereosexual in many places. (this is what I understand from a lay position - I don't have anything like the scientific background of some of the contributers to this thread.)
 
Kim:
Actually I thought that AIDS was originally in a very specific environment - the gay scene and needle users. Viruses seem to learn quite fast though.......now it's hetereosexual in many places. (this is what I understand from a lay position - I don't have anything like the scientific background of some of the contributers to this thread.)

I've read that is had mutated and is not exactly the same as it was back in the 80s. Sorry it wasn't clear. I was making the point to clarify if people are in a "culture environment" as in farmed animals, or "wild" as in reef or forest animals.
 
archman:
Water quality should be the main focus.

And that, my friend, is God's honest truth!
Not only that, it is the one thing we really can effect with our puny human efforts; we should concentrate on it, other good things will follow.
Rick
 
Rick Murchison:
And that, my friend, is God's honest truth!
Rick

Water quality ain't the whole picture. I saw some pristine water in 1998 and 99 that had bleached coral.
 
Hank49:
Water quality ain't the whole picture. I saw some pristine water in 1998 and 99 that had bleached coral.
No, but it's the part we have a chance at painting. And we should. (As Archman said... "the main focus")
Rick
 
Hank49:
I'm not sure I agree with your statements on virus in cultured systems vs wild etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that you're saying mutation doesn't occur in the wild as it does in cultured systems. What about HIV? Are people in a cultured environment? or wild? And since there is little to no long term viral studies done on wild occuring species, theorizing that they don't mutate as fast in that case is mere speculation. The only viruses that are studied long enough to draw conclusions are mainly human born.

Yup, viral ecology definitely operates quite differently between wild vs. cultured environs!

Viral evolution operates much like bacterial evolution, or any kind of evolution, really. Speciation is favored by processes that promote mutation. The only process in a low diversity, high abundance environment (i.e. a mariculture setup) that really favors viral mutation is pure propagation. And that will only occur if a suitable viral strain finds conditions favorable for copying. But when/if that happens, look out!

Viral diversity is high typically where other ecological diversity is high. There are several *fairly new* studies out supporting this assertion; not that anyone was surprised by the results (just by the magnitude). But a high diversity viral environment suffers the same growth constraints as other high diversity critters, low abundance of individual types. This makes it very difficult for any specific "type" to go nuts and create mass destruction, unlike what happens on monoculture setups like domesticated crops and fish farms.

Human populations operate more along monoculture principles than "wild" type ones, so it's generally not appropriate to use human disease examples in reference to natural ecologies. Viruses are highly specific at the lower taxonomic level, unlike many bacterial disease vectors. It's what makes viruses so dangerous to individual species, but unthreatening to non-related groups.

One of the few "breaks" in viral research is that a "long-term" study could be completed in a year or so. Generation time is so rapid (given favorable conditions) with bacterial and viral-sized organisms, that we understand evolution in these sized critters perhaps better than anything else. Where the mystery is at the present time is primarily confined to micro-scale water-column processes within the plankton community. Individual strain types haven't been exhaustively quantified nor identified. What we do know is that viruses are a natural component, have high diversities, and that they generally don't impact much other than the nano- and picoplankton. But they THRASH these communities big-time; it's like a never-ending war of the lilliputians. Understanding this aspect of marine viruses is the only significant "new" stuff, and it's fascinating only really to biological oceanographers. I suppose my earlier remarks should have been more specific on this. The mini-wars between viruses and picoplankton appear predominantly confined with the smaller microplankton, and appear to be an ever-present process. That's cool.
 
Rick Murchison:
And the "experts" were just as certain then as they are about "global warming" today.
Hide & watch...
Rick
My point, exactly.
 
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