Accident discussions worthless? (split from accident thread)

[Doppler]

I start most of my classroom sessions with a module on accident analysis. The hope is that by discussing past dive-related deaths and near misses, one can learn something about the process, which lead to the final event and perhaps by doing so, avoid a similar fate.

Of course, true analysis requires that one has a fair idea of exactly what happened... or one has enough solid data to then extrapolate subsequent events.

One seldom gets that information from postings on internet chat groups... no matter how well intentioned, these threads too often become either a back-slapping exercise for the people who scraped through by the skin of their teeth or a series of posts offering condolences to the survivors of those who did not. Unfortunately, most turn into a slugging match denigrating agency policies, instructors, buddies, fitness levels, and gear configuration. Invariably, actual events, actual data, actual reactions are not posted. And even if they were, there are few qualified to provide an unbiased interpretation of that information.

These threads therefore serve only to reinforce the skewed vision many of us already have about ways to keep this sport of ours safe and growing.

Apologies for being somewhat negative, but I have yet to see the actual results of an autopsy or coroner’s findings posted on this board following a dive accident. Does this seem odd to anyone else?

 

[GDI]

Accident Analysis
As a member of the Internation Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery team I can tell that I nor anyone else has the right to disclose information regarding such unfortunate circumstances. MY best and sincere condolences to the family members.

The authorites have in place a format in which they will conduct their investigation. If they feel it is in the best interest of the diving community and with the permission of the family. They will release an official statement.

Accident Analysis reports are those that have been cleared or made to read protecting the names of all involved. They are a valuable tool if used correctly. If you are interested in such reports then you may read these:
www.iucrr.org

For now leave the speculations out of it

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I start most of my classroom sessions with a module on accident analysis. The hope is that by discussing past dive-related deaths and near misses, one can learn something about the process, which lead to the final event and perhaps by doing so, avoid a similar fate.

Of course, true analysis requires that one has a fair idea of exactly what happened... or one has enough solid data to then extrapolate subsequent events.

One seldom gets that information from postings on internet chat groups... no matter how well intentioned, these threads too often become either a back-slapping exercise for the people who scraped through by the skin of their teeth or a series of posts offering condolences to the survivors of those who did not. Unfortunately, most turn into a slugging match denigrating agency policies, instructors, buddies, fitness levels, and gear configuration. Invariably, actual events, actual data, actual reactions are not posted. And even if they were, there are few qualified to provide an unbiased interpretation of that information.

These threads therefore serve only to reinforce the skewed vision many of us already have about ways to keep this sport of ours safe and growing.

Apologies for being somewhat negative, but I have yet to see the actual results of an autopsy or coroner’s findings posted on this board following a dive accident. Does this seem odd to anyone else?

I agree whole heartedly. We may as well copy and paste the first 20 posts from every diver death thread, as they're all the same.

I don't know anyone elses motivation, but I read these threads so, as Doppler says, "The hope is that by discussing past dive-related deaths and near misses, one can learn something about the process, which lead to the final event and perhaps by doing so, avoid a similar fate."

All I can hope here is, I will not become a part of the "problem posts".

Steve

 

[darkstar]

If anyone thinks that analyzing an accident in this forum has any real benefit, they should read last year's posts on the unfortunate fatality near Long Sault (Belly Dumper).

Other than condolences, IMO, we should just post information that comes from recognized news organizations, authorities and direct from witnesses of the event without interpretation.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

If anyone thinks that analyzing an accident in this forum has any real benefit, they should read last year's posts on the unfortunate fatality near Long Sault (Belly Dumper).

IMHO, you're wrong, as I DO get something out of these, simply by reading what has been said about the accident, and then run my own "what-if" scenarios, so heaven forbid I get called to test my rescue skills or lack thereof, I might just know how to handle it, thereby giving the victim their best chance of survival. I would hope others would think of it in this light, for their buddies sake as well.

Steve

P.S. The above has no direct inference to this specific case, but is a blanket statement for accident analysis, and why we/I do it.

 

[Doppler]

Accident Analysis
As a member of the Internation Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery team I can tell that I nor anyone else has the right to disclose information regarding such unfortunate circumstances. MY best and sincere condolences to the family members.

The authorites have in place a format in which they will conduct their investigation. If they feel it is in the best interest of the diving community and with the permission of the family. They will release an official statement.

Accident Analysis reports are those that have been cleared or made to read protecting the names of all involved. They are a valuable tool if used correctly. If you are interested in such reports then you may read these:
www.iucrr.org

For now leave the speculations out of it

Rick:

I am not speculating... I am simply stating what I believe to be the essence of the challenge that faces our community... lack of data. And adding that I have yet to see any benefit (for example, some concensus that results in tangible positive changes made to Joe and Jane Diver's in-water behaviour) derived from these seemingly endless threads.

What are the actual results of 30 or 40 people saying: "My condolances to the family?" Do these messages ever get to the victim's survivors? My point is that as a community, we should be getting off our duffs and trying to do something about the state of our industry. However, without data and direction, nothing happens and more divers die or get injured or get scared ****less and leave the sport.

I don't know what the answer is... but I honestly feel that mutual friends of ours, such as Larry, help by contributing to raising the bar, but know what? It's not enough.

Other than condolences, IMO, we should just post information that comes from recognized news organizations, authorities and direct from witnesses of the event without interpretation.

I could not disagree more... well I guess I could... let's just say I strongly disagree.

If expressing concern or condolences makes you feel better, go ahead but it does not accomplish anything concrete. I sort of feel as though condolences have the potential to lure us into a false sense of belonging...

As for just posting information from recognised news organizations... the media invariable garble what truth surfaces... The average reporter has a few hours to research a story, get it written up and off to his editor and deal with her questions. The facts are not represented well. If you were to follow the trail of diving accidents in North America this year, you'd have lots of mixed messages and a pile of misinformation about the way dives are conducted and the events that may have contributed to the tragedy... In the event that engendered this thread, one learns the the victim and his rescuer "rocketed to the surface." Is that a pergorative statement? If you were asked as an expert witness to comment on that behaviour, what might you say? While you consider that, ask yourself: is it an accurate and unbiased account of what happened?

I restate my original point, there's nothing good comes out of these threads and without hard data and expert interpretation, you have nothing to comment upon except fiction.

 

[darkstar]

If expressing concern or condolences makes you feel better, go ahead but it does not accomplish anything concrete. I sort of feel as though condolences have the potential to lure us into a false sense of belonging...

I think a lot of people who post here think of divers as a community. It was after all the intent of this thread when it was started. Sorry divemed06 for helping to crap on your thread.

I restate my original point, there's nothing good comes out of these threads and without hard data and expert interpretation, you have nothing to comment upon except fiction.

I agree that the media is not an ideal source of information, but at least in this case they interviewed and quoted divers who were on the scene. In the absence of the actual accident investigation report, I'll take that over the whisperings of secret "PADI sources" any day. I also think that without all the available evidence, an analysis is flawed.

 

[sparky30]

Is there actually a single entity in Canada that records and analyzes dive fatalities? Is it mandatory to report them to a specific place for the record?
So far, all I've seen are a bunch of disjunct web pages that cover cases from the mid 90's. Most of those were produced by third parties not involved in the accident or the recovery.
I think the reason we have little or no useful information from which to learn or improve ourselves is because of a lack of source data..
Maybe I've just been looking int he wrong place...

 

[GDI]

Doppler, I know where you are coming from. Maybe my post wasn't so clear. I am in favour of analysing such events with the idea to prevent them in the future. But what I see is that we need to have factual information and use the reports that become availble to us from the investigations not speculation. That is why I suggested reading the IUCRR web site reports www.iucrr.org
Also read the articles that come from magazines such as Scuba Diving and the like. In looking at these reports we need also to remember the families. We can review this information protecting the names of those involved. You know the old "The names have been changed to protect the innocent" kind of statement

Sorry if I appeared against what you were saying. For your info the cave community has had a rough year for such tragedies and I personally have lost some close friends. But I promised that I would use their story as a learning experience for myself and those whom I teach.

 

[divemed06]

Rick:


I restate my original point, there's nothing good comes out of these threads and without hard data and expert interpretation, you have nothing to comment upon except fiction.

They obviously allow SOME people to rant on and on and on about their discontent... No one is forced to contribute to the thread or even read it. The less you contribute to it, the easier it will go down the board and be forgotten. On the other hand, it does make some people feel better to give their E-condolences; you never know who's reading. Having worked as a paramedic and now as a physician I can tell you that we often "keep working" on a cardiac arrest patient, knowing very well that they will not survive. We do this for the sake of the family. Sometimes, it's alright to do something (or in this case, post something) that may very well have little point to it or "scientific" value....and by the way, in many settings, "data" and "expert interpretation" have very little to do with the multifactorial elements of reality.