Accident Report...

[Big-t-2538]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I see more standards violations and plain stupidity over there than I can even count. I have decided to go out of my way to get shop names and turn instructors in from now on. I have decided on that course of action because beating them isn't legal. They ruin the diving for everyone, endanger their students (and mine) and scare the daylights out of me.

Mike you know what the scary thing about this is....every time I have seen something really dumb over there (for those who haven't figured out we're talking about Gilboa)...the guys and gals are telling me where they're from...who they're with...and how great they are. I don't have to go out of my way to find out who I'm never diving with....they sit right there and tell me.

 

[TCDiver1]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


I might have been off in guessing 20...I know it was a bunch of people....I don't know what the minimums are...whenever I have helped out with a class, I have had no more than 2 students...and the instructor(s) never have more than 3. I'll have to remember this threa the next time I see something along those lines. What is ridiculus is that these guys try and take all the students down at once....it is really a joke

I would be happy to Pm you all the recommended ratio info if you want. It's a little long and off topic to post. Just let me know.

The more i read on this board, the more i realize how bad some places are screwed up. Your example is just one more to consider. Agencies have to start tromping down on this sort of thing for the good of industry IMO.

Until that happens i will happily continue to teach em two or three at a time and not worry about the control and logistical nightmare, high ratio classes present.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


Mike you know what the scary thing about this is....every time I have seen something really dumb over there (for those who haven't figured out we're talking about Gilboa)...the guys and gals are telling me where they're from...who they're with...and how great they are. I don't have to go out of my way to find out who I'm never diving with....they sit right there and tell me.

We see some pretty far out stuff at Haigh too . Better be careful though I was accused of making this stuff up on another thread by someone who thinks the state of affairs in dive training are just fine.

 

[Big-t-2538]

just to prove my points...because some things I have seen I couldn't believe.....

I think I'm going to start taking my video camera along on trips to OH quarries on the weekends I'm heading there.

 

[Jersey]

JT2 - I think you did a great job, by quick thinking, you & your buddy were able to divide & conquer the situation, resulting in everyone going home at the end of the day.

As for the instructor, my biggest problem was in him not telling the same story to the responding EMT's & you/your buddy. Talk about a career limiting move. I agree 80 something dives is far too few to be an instructor. And it was poor judgement to take 3 divers down alone, while teaching his second class. Don't most instructors have a baby-sitter (for wont of a better word) overseeing their first true teaching situations?

Amanda - I have seen quite a few under-trained, overweighted students 'fall' off the platforms. They are cramped, slick with growth, they move as another diver falls on the them coming down and next thing - they are off the platform, heading toward the bottom. If they forget where their inflator hose is - first stop is the bottom. Or they float off a few feet & dump all air to get back down to platform, neglecting the fact they have moved within the water column. It sounds funny, but happens all too easily.

As for administration of O2 or any other life saving techniques, I would have to proceed despite any litiginous reservations. Philadelphia had a couple cases where people were quite literally hit by cars in front of the ER doors. Medical personal REFUSED to treat due to liability issues. Left them lay bleeding on the street. Can't say I blame them, PA jury awards for Med Mal are some of the highest in the country. Since then, PA seriously revised the good sam law. (under PA Consolidated Statues, Title 42, Chapter 83, Section 8331 & 8332. Maybe the lawyerly tpes here can tell me if that is proper citation ) There is no mention of administration or exclusion of O2. It does say that "good faith" shall include, but is not limited to, a reasonable opinion that the immediacy of the situation is such that the rendering of care should not be postponed until the patient is hospitalized. And holds the provider immune from civil penalty. If they got the diver to land, I would suggest the above applies. But again, I'm not a lawyer.

Big T & Mike - I also see unbelievable stuff and that is why I never want to be a DM or Instructor. I'd go crazy! MAybe you guys can sell the video - 'When Good Dives Go Bad 'or something like that.

 

[randyjoy]

Having taught First Responders, EMT, Paramedic, Basic First Aid, CPR, AED, 02 Administration, etc. for over 25 years in Texas, I can certainly tell you that the laws are different here than what I have seen posted from other states.

Sounds like this incident possibly took place in Texas, as that is where JT2 is located. If it didn't take place in the Lone Star State, the laws listed do not apply.

In Texas, if a person cannot give consent due to an injury or illness, the consent is implied. This consent extends all the way to surgical procedures.

You may not hold a subject in a hospital if they are "drunk or high." (You may if they are mentally ill, but not due to drugs or alcohol). Only a Court of Jurisdiction can impose consent on a non-mentally ill patient except for very specific treatments or procedures. You could arrest them for being drunk or high, but they can still refuse medical treatment.

A person who in good faith administers emergency care, including using an automated external defibrillator, at the scene of an emergency but not in a hospital or other health care facility or means of medical transport is not liable in civil damages for an act performed during the emergency unless the act is wilfully or wantonly negligent. The law does not apply if the person administering care exceeds their training or expects renumeration. (EMS personnel have a different law).

 

[Diver0001]

randyjoy once bubbled...
<snip>

In Texas, if a person cannot give consent due to an injury or illness, the consent is implied. This consent extends all the way to surgical procedures.

<snip>

That's what I've been thinking all day too. I didn't say anything yet because I didn't want to get off on a tangent about liability but outside the U.S. the world looks very different. Where I live we don't even train to think about *if* O2 should be given in an accident situation. It's just trained to be automatic. It seems to me that the PADI Rescue book does indicate that there are some of medical conditions that could aggravated by O2 (some heart diseases, I think) but these would all exclude a person from diving.

In the Netherlands (that's where I live) the liability law is also controlled differently. It's really hard to sue successfully for liability here as compared to the situation in the U.S. The same principles apply but they really make you show a *direct* connection between the actions of an individual and the damage done. Convolutions of logic don't even get off the ground here. For example, the famous McDonald's coffee case wouldn't have even made it to court here because the McDonald's employee didn't spill the coffee. His duty is to make sure he didn't spill it while handing it to her. If she proceeds to squeeze the cup open between her legs and gets burnt that's HER action, not the action of the McDonald's guy and therefore the consequences of that action are also HER responsibility...... Get the picture? Likewise if someone gives O2 (even without permission) at a scuba accident. It's an accepted best-practice in such situations and that's pretty much all the legal protection you need....(duty of care; applied best practices; end of story). So needless to say people here don't worry about trying to help others. It's nice if you're a pro. As long as you meet (or exceed) standards then you're applying best practices (at least you're not responsible for the system) and that's that. There has never been a scuba "pro" sued in the Netherlands as far as I know and as a consequence we pay about $165 a year for liability insurance and membership fees.

R..

 

[JT2]

The girl (diver#2) who was injured called me today, as did the rest of her family, and we talked for about an hour. First she thanked me for my help and invited me and my wife, as well as my buddy and his family to dinner Saturday night, then I asked her if she was comfortable in talking about the situation and she said that she actually wanted to and had tried to contact the instructor to thank him for his efforts as well and to talk about the accident, but he will not return her calls at this time. She said that they entered the water carrying their fins until they got to a water depth of about 3-4ft, and at that time the instructor told them to inflate their BC's, sit down until they floated, and put their fins on. She said that she put what she thought was quite a bit of air in her BC and then started to sit down in the water, but when she did she went to the bottom(3.5ft) so she quickly stood back up and her instructor told her to put more air in her BC and try again. This time she said that she held the button for a few more seconds until it appeared to her that her wing was almost fully inflated and rigid, she then sat back down in the water and was floating okay this time so she put her fins on. After everyone put their fins on they all swam out to the marker bouy over the platform and descended. She said that they were told to let ALL of the air out of their BCs so that they would drop straight down onto the platform. When she hit the platform she said that she felt like she hit it kind of hard and it surprised her. After they all got to the platform she said that she was in the kneeling position as the instructor had told them to be, but she was uncomfortable because her fins were hanging off the back of the platform so she tried to stand up so that she could scoot forward, but when she raised up she missed the platform with her fin and cartwheeled off of it and started to plummit into the "abyss"(as she called it) and after a second or two she felt tremendous pain in her ears and started feeling dizzy, and shortly thereafter she hit the bottom. After she hit the bottom she says she doesn't remember much from then on until we got to the beach, although she seems to remember thinking that a very long time had passed between the time she fell off the platform and the time she was brought to the surface, and she also said she remembers telling herself not to let her regulator get knocked out.
When we all go to dinner this weekend she is going to bring her computer(Aeris) to me so that I can download the dive profile since she doesn't have the capability to do so, once I get this information I will pass it on to the board with her permission.

As far as the administering of O2 is concerned, I must admit that I really do not know what the laws in Texas are on this matter, but I really did not worry about it since the RN was there doing it, but I will follow that up with the fact that had the RN not been there I would have done it anyway without even thinking twice about!

PS..The best news of all is that this girl wants to continue diving, and we are going to try and get her with a very experienced instructor in our area that we all know well.

 

[O-ring]

?

 

[JT2]

The way I understand it Diver#2 was in training to become OW certified.