At what level do you donate air?

[bwerb]

I have been reading some of the "leave your buddy" and out of air threads and a question came to me. I know this sounds kinda stupid but at what point do you donate air to your buddy?

The most obvious answers are A) Whenever they are out of air or B) Whenever they signal they are out of air (practice training and all that), but...what about at low air? Does anyone start to share air at levels when both tanks still have air in them?

A personal story which relates is that on a boat trip shortly after certification we were told (and signed a waiver) that we would not return to the boat with less than 500 PSI in our tanks or we would be charged a fine. On our safety stop, my wife signals "low on air" and holds up her guage reading 500 PSI on the line. At this point I hand her my Octopus and we continue in this manner through the stop and to the surface. The reality was, neither of us were really "out of air", we were just concerned about getting dinged an arbitrary "low air tax".

So...at what point do you begin to share air? When they are empty or some point prior to that and why?

 

[Big-t-2538]

Fortunately, I have never "had" to share air other than training exercises. I have shared air during safety stops, just before the first time we went into an overhead environment, or some other time brian ad I get bored. We tend to share air more for the fact of checking back-up and make sure it is functioning properly.

 

[Fetch]

In short, you donate air whenever they signal.

Now, "when should you signal?". I would say, whenever you're in danger of violating your emergency reserve, and lower, or you otherwise need air (reg problem, entangled hose, whatever).

This all comes back to proper communication and skills. Turn the dive at the proper point, arrive at the boat with the proper amount of gas. If something goes wrong, make informed decisions at that point.

In your wife's case, y'all should probably have planned to hit the boat with 750psi. That way, each of y'all would have 250psi extra to play with if, for instance, you had trouble with currents or directions.

It may have been an seemingly arbitrary and annoying decision for the boat operator to make, but the idea is that that 500psi isn't to be violated, period, unless there isn't another safe choice. Few divers in the OW crowd, apparently, take that to heart enough, hence trying the "fine" tactic.

Air-sharing shouldn't be a big deal, technique-wise (that is, it should be easy to do and you should have no hesitation doing it), but it should be quite a larger deal, incident-wise (WHY did you need to share air? reg problems, unexpectedly high consumption, poor dive planning?).

That's my take, at least.

jeff

 

[Spectre]

bwerb once bubbled...
A personal story which relates is that on a boat trip shortly after certification we were told (and signed a waiver) that we would not return to the boat with less than 500 PSI in our tanks or we would be charged a fine

:livid: That sort of thing completely pisses me off. As new divers, there is going to some bobbles here and there until you get a feel for your SAC rates and your dive planning. I hate all those 'for your own good' rules [don't get me rolling on glove bans].

There are dozens of things that can happen in a dive, and that extra air is there for a reason. Which is better? Having a stressful dive and then blowing your safety stop cause your getting close to 500 psi, or running your tank close to dry on your safety stop for that extra insurance.

How do they discourage fast ascents? How do they discourage blowing stops? Do they have a whole fine schedule? $X for coming up with < 500 psi. $Y for an embolism? $Z for getting bent???

As a new diver, the times you are going to need that 500 psi is after a less than perfect dive. The last you need as you sit at your safety stop trying to reflect on a bad dive is to be worried about the financial reprocussions of doing a little extra deco...

To answer your question... you donate air when your buddy asks for it, or you feel they need it. You ask for air when you are uncomfortable about the amount of air you have.

 

[BlueWaterDiving]

Well put can say much more. I like it.

 

[Wreck/Tec]

bwerb

For someone to put you in a situation where you would be penalized for returning with a surplus of air, mush less your agreeing with it was obserd. Risking your life and your wife's potentially, was not your finest hour. Shareing air can start at any time, any depth, any place. If it were you, and you needed air, and someone questioned your request you would be fit to be tied, if you survived! All else aside, I wouldn't dought that if the right person was involved you may open yourself up to legal action if you were to deny them, not that youn would.
On a lighter side, I frequently share air with my one partner for several reasons. We extend our BT by equalizing our air supplys.
The practice is invaluable. You may have to do this for real sometime.
I'm not giving the shop any more air than is necessary. However, surfacing with enough air for my partner and I in the event of an emergency is always observed.
Let that clown, who came up with that rule know, your buisness has hit the highway and why!

 

[MikeFerrara]

My wife usually uses less air than me. We have shared air to even up the supply.

 

[Lawman]

is going to "fine"me?

I'll see them in court...with a jury.

 

[Texass]

I did share air with CavernQT once for about 20 minutes when we were laying down a navigation course at a local quarry. She typically can last about an hour on a spare-air tank. That day she was diving doubles w/ a long hose as practice for her cave course.

While we were trying to untangle a reel, her wedding ring decided to pop off and hide in the foilage. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a life-threatening emergency - I haven't met her husband - but we weren't about to surface without finding her ring.

 

[Fetch]

In this case, this is the dive operator's way of making sure that if 500psi is broken, that something really happened, besides not watching your gas supply during the dive. If a true incident occured (lost a fin, reg freeflow, whatever) not only would I doubt they'd "fine" you for it, I doubt you'd even consider the "fine" during the incident itself.

They are doing what they can to keep somewhat new or less experienced divers from running out of gas under the water.

Rather than violating the 500psi on a safety stop, breath off your buddy's tank. If y'all are both low, then a little reflection wouldn't (IMHO) be uncalled for at all. If something truly went wrong during the dive, and you feel you need to go through the extra deco (remember, on tables the safety stop is optional in most cases), then explain it to the boat operators. I'm fairly sure they realize that the gas is there for "situations".

Wrec/Tec - I think you misunderstood the dive operator's policy. They purport to "fine" you if you return with less than 500psi. I can only imagine that if they instituted this policy (bound to piss divers off, obviously, as illustrated by some comments on this thread) when they have had too many divers breath their tanks dry because they were watching fish.

For a generic coral dive where you want to surface near the (stationary) boat, but you will not be unduly adversely affected if you have to go to the surface and do the swim of shame over, with 3000psi AL80 tanks:

Turn the dive (head back to the boat) when the first diver hits 1875psi. Assuming similar consumption on the way back, you'll be under the boat with 750psi at the least (possibly more if you do less sight-seeing). If you swim up shallower, you can take care of the minimal NDL safety stop recommendation without burning more gas.

Lawman - I'm fairly sure that if you don't wish to pay the "fine", the dive operator will just shrug and say "whatever". I wouldn't count on diving off that boat for the rest of the day, or ever again, in fact. Sorta like the Que-ball jar at a pool hall

jeff

Spectre once bubbled...

There are dozens of things that can happen in a dive, and that extra air is there for a reason. Which is better? Having a stressful dive and then blowing your safety stop cause your getting close to 500 psi, or running your tank close to dry on your safety stop for that extra insurance.

How do they discourage fast ascents? How do they discourage blowing stops? Do they have a whole fine schedule? $X for coming up with < 500 psi. $Y for an embolism? $Z for getting bent???

As a new diver, the times you are going to need that 500 psi is after a less than perfect dive. The last you need as you sit at your safety stop trying to reflect on a bad dive is to be worried about the financial reprocussions of doing a little extra deco...

To answer your question... you donate air when your buddy asks for it, or you feel they need it. You ask for air when you are uncomfortable about the amount of air you have.