big PADI mistake

[miguel sanz]

:boom:
Hello everybody, I have and important doubt, I´m not sure if this is the right forum, but I hope I´ll be answered.
First of all, I want to apologise for my english, I hope everybody will understand my doubt, if not, please tell me and I´ll try to do better.
Recently I´ve been taking my PADI divemaster course and I realized that novel divers could be doing decompression diving (I meen diving that needs deco stops), while following what there taught and not knowing it. I´ll put an example:
imagine a brand new open water diver, taught to use the table for no decompression dives, right after the course he/she takes the deep dive class of the advance OWD course. Now he/she has dive 5-6 times (always with an instructor, who always has a computer), and is allowed to dive to 30 meters with his buddy.
None of them have computer, but they go diving to an easy place with 28 meters botton deph and after looking the table they decide to make a bottom time of 15 minutes. No problem until now. Once the 15 minute are achived, they go up to 22 meters, there they find very interesting stuff and decide to stay there until they reach a 100 bars. In this situation, they can pass the no deco time without knowing about it. They have being told not to reach the no-deco time for a certain deph, and then go up not faster than 12 meters/minute, and they don´t know about the weel and what it is for, so they are taking greater risks that they´re allowed to and that they know of.
I hope my doubt is clear, maybe I misunderstood some part of the OWD course?
thanks to anybody that would answer, if i´m not misunderstanding anything, i think it´s a big mistake.
NABADEI.

 

[jonnythan]

miguel sanz once bubbled...
:boom:
Hello everybody, I have and important doubt, I´m not sure if this is the right forum, but I hope I´ll be answered.
First of all, I want to apologise for my english, I hope everybody will understand my doubt, if not, please tell me and I´ll try to do better.
Recently I´ve been taking my PADI divemaster course and I realized that novel divers could be doing decompression diving (I meen diving that needs deco stops), while following what there taught and not knowing it. I´ll put an example:
imagine a brand new open water diver, taught to use the table for no decompression dives, right after the course he/she takes the deep dive class of the advance OWD course. Now he/she has dive 5-6 times (always with an instructor, who always has a computer), and is allowed to dive to 30 meters with his buddy.
None of them have computer, but they go diving to an easy place with 28 meters botton deph and after looking the table they decide to make a bottom time of 15 minutes. No problem until now. Once the 15 minute are achived, they go up to 22 meters, there they find very interesting stuff and decide to stay there until they reach a 100 bars. In this situation, they can pass the no deco time without knowing about it. They have being told not to reach the no-deco time for a certain deph, and then go up not faster than 12 meters/minute, and they don´t know about the weel and what it is for, so they are taking greater risks that they´re allowed to and that they know of.
I hope my doubt is clear, maybe I misunderstood some part of the OWD course?
thanks to anybody that would answer, if i´m not misunderstanding anything, i think it´s a big mistake.
NABADEI.

No, I don't think so, assuming these PADI students were taught the tables the same way I was.

You see, when using the tables, you only consider your max depth and current dive time. So you should know the NDL for 30 meters (20 minutes.

So, in other words, once you've gone to 30 meters on the dive, you *must* end the dive before 20 minutes of total dive time.

If I went to 30 meters for 15 minutes, then took a minute to ascend to 20 meters, then stayed there, I would only have 4 minutes left before I needed to make a direct ascent to the surface.

That's the way SSI teaches tables... I assume PADI is the same.

 

[jonnythan]

BTW...

are you certified?

 

[miguel sanz]

jonnythan once bubbled...
BTW...

are you certified?

BTW? what does that meen?
The time used I beleive is the bottom time, you don´t include your ascent time, and I´m not sure if PADI states " end" your dive, or " start ascent not faster than ..." what could be interpreted differently by a nobel diver.
in fact a asked this question to a few OWD ( from different schools) and they all could have mistaken (except that they usually dive with people with more experience and usually with computers). After I gave them the explenation, some didn´nt initially aggree because they thaugth they could´nt be takimg up more nitrogen once they were less deep than the maximum deph.
in any case, i think it is not sufficienly clear.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Open water divers are tought to use their maximum depth and total bottom time to calculate the dive. Bottom time ends when you begin a direct ascent for the surface. A safety stop is permitted and does not need to be counted as bottom time. Student materieals state that if you are going to dive a computer that each diver must have their own computer.

Divers may be doing as you describe but they are not tought to do it.

 

[miguel sanz]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Open water divers are tought to use their maximum depth and total bottom time to calculate the dive. Bottom time ends when you begin a direct ascent for the surface. A safety stop is permitted and does not need to be counted as bottom time. Student materieals state that if you are going to dive a computer that each diver must have their own computer.

Divers may be doing as you describe but they are not tought to do it.

I´m not sure if this is tought well enough, or there is place for mistake. It is pretty common that two brand new OWD don´t use any computer. What I try to state is, that this divers are not tought to do that, but there no tought well enough, not to do it.

 

[wreckchick]

I was taught that using the tables we were required to calculate our bottom time on a profile that didn't give credit for time spent at a depth shallower than our max depth, that would be a multi-level dive and needed different calculations.

If the students you're talking to aren't understanding that, it's an instructor error not an error in the way PADI wants the course taught.

Rachel

 

[cavemanxxx]

Well, I think the crux of the problem is coming out. PADI standards are quite poor, unlike thier marketing materials. Point taken they have things documented, but where PADI fails abismally is in their verification that standards are complied with.

I have plenty of examples I do not want to baor you with, but I have seen some funky things in my time (BTW, I aint an instructor / dive master and never had the inclination to be one. and thus no axes to grind between organizations.)

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree with caveman that they don't do enough to make certain that the intent of the standards have beem met but neither does any agency. I think most just send out student questionairs.

In this case though even if the instructor does nothing at all the book is pretty clear on how tables are to be used and for that matter computers also. There are a good number of practice problems, they are tested on table use and they must use the tables to plan their check out dives. I don't think there should be any confusion after all that.

Now I have seen many divers just following other divers and not doing their own dive planning but I think that's an example of monkey see monkey do.

 

[Diver0001]

miguel sanz once bubbled...


I´m not sure if this is tought well enough, or there is place for mistake. It is pretty common that two brand new OWD don´t use any computer. What I try to state is, that this divers are not tought to do that, but there no tought well enough, not to do it.

I think you missed something in your OWD training. PADI OWD are trained to plan their dives based on maximum depth and total bottom time.

R..