Arduous
Contributor
Yup gotta agree with Lost Yooper, it's a business and like all businesses they are there to make money.
Dive Safe ...........Arduous
Dive Safe ...........Arduous
BP/Wings: Why aren't they offered to first time purchasers??
- Thread starter TexasMike
- Start date
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Campana
Guest
"One must consider the motives of the dive shops when asking about gear. It really doesn't matter to them how efficient a piece of gear is or the simplicity it offers. They aren't thinking about it's adaptability or how it may affect your joy in the water. They want to sell you something that will last a while and try to get you into a mindset that wants to buy the "latest and greatest" thing out there. They are salesmen first. " --Lost Yooper
I have to disagree, at least for my shop, and probably for a lot of others. First I'll tell what we really like to do, and then I'll tell you what I would like to do.
I DM for a small, suburban dive shop, and occasionally sell some equipment. The owners are good friends. We sell mainly Scubapro and some Genesis. I am sure I am speaking for everybody that works in our small shop when I say we would dearly love to sell every new diver the best equipment we have. I would much rather sell a Mk25/600 reg set to a newbie than a Mk2/190. I would certainly rather sell them a Night Hawk than a classic or some cheap Genesis BC. But, the customers just can't afford or won't afford them, they just cost too much. But no salesperson in our shop intentionally sells cheap, second rate equipment, I show advantages of better equipment as hard as I can, but I can't make anyone buy them. I have commented that the new diver/customer would be much better off in the long run if they just let us pick their equipment for them, because they make the same mistakes over and over, but they won't, because they think that we're "salesmen first", which we're not. We're divers first, who happen to sell equipment. The owner told me the other day that he'd be happy to keep the shop open with no profit, indefinitely, just so he isn't losing money.
I am the only active diver in our shop that dives a backplate. I show it to students, I show it to the owners, I take it on tropical trips and try to emphasize it's assets without being obnoxious. But the type divers that they are, they just aren't interested in that kind of equipment. I really wish they were. The main owner of the shop has expressed some interest in the long hose, which he now points out to new students, and explains it's advantages. He's getting interested in Trimix. He wants to go with me on some deeper dives. I can see a little spark starting, and I'll continue to try to sell him on "tech" equipment.
What I'd like to do, is set up one display of equipment which features backplate and wing, DIR rigged equipment; maybe in a corner of the shop, so that I could show it to customers. Maybe in a couple of years.
Whan a new diver expresses a serious interest in improving his diving, I'm there to take him or her out on a dive or two, or to welcome him as a dive buddy. Sooner or later, he or she might get interested in a backplate and harness.
Yooper, I know that most people believe what you say is true, and I've certainly been in shops that are obviously the type you speak of. But, you're not speaking of our shop or others like us.
Thank you for your consideration of my opinion.
Dave
I have to disagree, at least for my shop, and probably for a lot of others. First I'll tell what we really like to do, and then I'll tell you what I would like to do.
I DM for a small, suburban dive shop, and occasionally sell some equipment. The owners are good friends. We sell mainly Scubapro and some Genesis. I am sure I am speaking for everybody that works in our small shop when I say we would dearly love to sell every new diver the best equipment we have. I would much rather sell a Mk25/600 reg set to a newbie than a Mk2/190. I would certainly rather sell them a Night Hawk than a classic or some cheap Genesis BC. But, the customers just can't afford or won't afford them, they just cost too much. But no salesperson in our shop intentionally sells cheap, second rate equipment, I show advantages of better equipment as hard as I can, but I can't make anyone buy them. I have commented that the new diver/customer would be much better off in the long run if they just let us pick their equipment for them, because they make the same mistakes over and over, but they won't, because they think that we're "salesmen first", which we're not. We're divers first, who happen to sell equipment. The owner told me the other day that he'd be happy to keep the shop open with no profit, indefinitely, just so he isn't losing money.
I am the only active diver in our shop that dives a backplate. I show it to students, I show it to the owners, I take it on tropical trips and try to emphasize it's assets without being obnoxious. But the type divers that they are, they just aren't interested in that kind of equipment. I really wish they were. The main owner of the shop has expressed some interest in the long hose, which he now points out to new students, and explains it's advantages. He's getting interested in Trimix. He wants to go with me on some deeper dives. I can see a little spark starting, and I'll continue to try to sell him on "tech" equipment.
What I'd like to do, is set up one display of equipment which features backplate and wing, DIR rigged equipment; maybe in a corner of the shop, so that I could show it to customers. Maybe in a couple of years.
Whan a new diver expresses a serious interest in improving his diving, I'm there to take him or her out on a dive or two, or to welcome him as a dive buddy. Sooner or later, he or she might get interested in a backplate and harness.
Yooper, I know that most people believe what you say is true, and I've certainly been in shops that are obviously the type you speak of. But, you're not speaking of our shop or others like us.
Thank you for your consideration of my opinion.
Dave
Lost Yooper
Guest
That's why I threw in that little disclaimer. I've been in a couple decent shops too. Shops like EE and Fifth D are prime examples of great people running great shops. The problem with a lot of shops and shop owners is they don't even care to learn about what's out there that might be better. They have what they have, know what they know, and that's all there is to it.
Never stop learning/considering.
Mike
Never stop learning/considering.
Mike
Campana
Guest
Even my shop owner buddies have'nt kept up. They're perfectly happy with their "tropical" gear, for teaching, going to Cozumel, etc. Their idea of new gear is a Nighthawk. They don't really understand the DIR gear issues, and I have to bring them along slowly. I catch a lot of flak (gentle prodding and teasing) about being a "teckie". I wish I could really do some kind of demo or something where they could try stuff out. There are a couple of new divers that might go that way to increase our voice at the shop. Think I'll go after them a little harder.
It's funny, though, on most trips, I donate my long hose to some air hog on their safety stop and everybody comments on how easy it is. In classes, every new student noticed how the student that I'm paired up with doesn't have to struggle to breath off my hose, but they don't seem to understand that the DIR gear is available to them too.
Hopeful sign is, I'm seeing more and more drysuits, winter diving, backplates, etc. at the local Rock Pit/Scuba Park.
Dave
It's funny, though, on most trips, I donate my long hose to some air hog on their safety stop and everybody comments on how easy it is. In classes, every new student noticed how the student that I'm paired up with doesn't have to struggle to breath off my hose, but they don't seem to understand that the DIR gear is available to them too.
Hopeful sign is, I'm seeing more and more drysuits, winter diving, backplates, etc. at the local Rock Pit/Scuba Park.
Dave
Diverl
Guest
Unfortunately we live in a society where more seems to be better. If you look at every new product it is new and/or improved with some really cool new feature. I think that many people have a hard time understanding that less can be better when done properly.
F
Ferrara
Guest
Before I gave the bp/wings a try, the package I recommended to most was based on one of the Zeagles. I try to start people in a kit they can build on rather than one they need to replace. Since I have started diving bp/wing, I dont see the need for anything else. Yooper you are right in that some (ok most) shops put people in a pretty colored useless jacket (with lots of rings an pockets). When the diver wants to do deep, wreck or whatever they get to sell another kit. In fact, thats what an lds did to me when I started. I guess thats why Im not any good at retail.
It is also true that most shops dont dive that way and dont carry the equipment. But I have worse news. Many shops and instructors dont even bother to secure alternates and gauges or weight people correctly.
I do think bp/wings with everything else configured correctly is best for beginners. Beginners would probably benefit more from a streamlined well thought out system than the more experienced. I have students show up with so much stuff clipped and dangling from them they look like Christmas trees. Sorry, I have to put in a plug here. They got it all for half price online. Then I make them take it all off and leave it in the car. I could have saved them 100%.
Lots of them want what Rodale's says is cool this month.
It is also true that most shops dont dive that way and dont carry the equipment. But I have worse news. Many shops and instructors dont even bother to secure alternates and gauges or weight people correctly.
I do think bp/wings with everything else configured correctly is best for beginners. Beginners would probably benefit more from a streamlined well thought out system than the more experienced. I have students show up with so much stuff clipped and dangling from them they look like Christmas trees. Sorry, I have to put in a plug here. They got it all for half price online. Then I make them take it all off and leave it in the car. I could have saved them 100%.
Lots of them want what Rodale's says is cool this month.
OP
TexasMike
Contributor
Also an interesting question. It seems that when a new arrival to our board asks about BC's in general and BP's in particular, we always mention recreational diving.
But thinking on "casual", if that is synonymous with "vacations only, less than 15-20 dives per year", then probably not. IMO, that diver is best served by a vest style since they won't be putting that much demand on their diving or the BC
I'm finding that's typical of many locations.
OP
TexasMike
Contributor
I think this would be a very good thing, especially since due to the Internet, the occasional magazine article (a la Rodales recently), and other sources, the newbie divers are going to hear about DIR. And having a display for them to see and comprehend would be nice. I know I would have appreciated it if I had one to look at.
OP
TexasMike
Contributor
<<wicked grin>> Guess I'm part of this group now
Shall we turn CSSP into the Tekkie mecca of Texas? :mission: (admittidly, I got lots to learn about tek, but I'm a humble and willing student!)
tombiowami
Contributor
I would have to disagree with you here, Mike=-)
I think it was Herman asking about a bp/wings for travelling purposes since the Ranger (I think) was so big to pack. I think an aluminum bp with the 17 lb. wing, total weight about 2 lbs. maybe, is the perfect tropical bc/bp what have you. It also can be carried on instead of checked, if that is a concern. Even the 27 lb. wing will fold tiny.
I will say it again also, the bp/wing is so much easier to dive in all aspects IMO.
By getting Fred Ts bp, and not a Halcyon wing, someone could get a very reasonably priced tropical bc.
And then if they want to dive a few miles back into Wakulla, or the Andria Doria the next weekend, they are all set with config, just need to get the bigger wing and a couple tanks.
Tommy
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