Challenging a specialty

[rescue15]

I don't know if this has ever been asked but here goes...

Several agencies give you credit for experience...( for example you can get SDI Advanced Diver if you have the required number of dives and demonstrate proficiency or equivancy for the required specialties) How come you can't do this for such certifications as the PADI DSAT program, PSAI or other Technical programs?

Steve

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I don't know if this has ever been asked but here goes...

Several agencies give you credit for experience...( for example you can get SDI Advanced Diver if you have the required number of dives and demonstrate proficiency or equivancy for the required specialties) How come you can't do this for such certifications as the PADI DSAT program, PSAI or other Technical programs?

Steve

Probably money and legal CYA reasons, although not necessarily in that order.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm a little confused; the title of the thread is "challenging a specialty" yet your actual question doesn't mention any specialties.

I also think you should give a couple more examples of "credit for experience" since I don't think what you describe with SDI is what I would consider "challenging" or "credit for experience" (actually credit for another agencies cert or training dive).

 

[rescue15]

couple more examples of "credit for experience" since I don't think what you describe with SDI is what I would consider "challenging" or "credit for experience"

With SDI, you can attain an ADVANCED Scuba Diver certification (not the watered down advanced class) by having the proper number of dives and prove to the instructer you have proviciency in night, deep, and advanced nav. You don't need to have those cards in hand to get the advanced cert.

That's what I mean...you are actually getting credit for life experience.

It's a shame you can't do this with technical certifications. There are alot of people out there that are being held back from diving certain sites (that are in their ability level) because they don't hold a particular card. Even worse, they can't dive sites they have previously dove because now you need a special card to do it.

I know dive operations are worried about being sued, and I know when you go to a resort area you don't always have the best divers on the charter but there should be a way to get competent divers the cards they need to be able to access the sites they want.

There are many other things that a person can do that is more dangerous than diving that the certifying agencies allow you to demonstrate proficiency ( for a lesser cost than taking the whole course) and when you satisfy the instructor, you are issued the cert. I don't see doing the same thing for say advanced deco or some overhead environment class, as any different - you are prooving yourself to the agency standards, you just have learned it differently. It's no different than e-learning scuba classes.

I'm not saying training isn't important - it certainly is! I'm just saying a person who dives oin the North Atlantic at depths up to say 150 feet should be able to do the same thing in Florida and not have to pay $1000 to earn a card to allow him to do it. He's already spent that money diving and gaining experience. I'd rather have a guy who has 100 dives and 10 cards as a buddy than someone who has 100 cards and 10 dives. As valuable as training is , experience can be more valuable and.


Steve

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm still wondering about your "several agencies" remark in the OP; what other dive agencies give you credit on certs for life experience?

With SDI, you can attain an ADVANCED Scuba Diver certification (not the watered down advanced class) by having the proper number of dives and prove to the instructer you have proviciency in night, deep, and advanced nav. You don't need to have those cards in hand to get the advanced cert.

That's what I mean...you are actually getting credit for life experience.

My question is "how do you prove you have the required proficiency in Advanced Navigation without showing the instructor you can do all the things required of the cert by diving and by passing the quizzes/exam?" If you can do that without reading the book and in less dives than the actual cert, you could save the cost of the book and the cost of a training dive. If the Deep card requires 4 dives, could you really prove proficiency in just 2 dives with the instructor?

It seems the SDI Advanced Scuba Diver is much like PADI's Master Scuba Diver, and we all know how much we like to make fun of card collecting Master Scuba Divers!

It's a shame you can't do this with technical certifications. There are alot of people out there that are being held back from diving certain sites (that are in their ability level) because they don't hold a particular card. Even worse, they can't dive sites they have previously dove because now you need a special card to do it.

Please give examples of this. Are you saying that you are a proficient cave diver but have no cave cert so Ginnie Springs won't let you take a light? Or maybe you consider yourself a proficient deep air diver but charter boats won't take you to sites deeper than 130' because you don't have a deep air card?

Advanced OW from most agencies will get you to 95% or so of all the dive sites on the planet. You speak of "alot of people who are being held back," what dive sites are all these proficient divers being held back from?

I know dive operations are worried about being sued, and I know when you go to a resort area you don't always have the best divers on the charter but there should be a way to get competent divers the cards they need to be able to access the sites they want.

That would be the aforementioned certification classes.

There are many other things that a person can do that is more dangerous than diving that the certifying agencies allow you to demonstrate proficiency ( for a lesser cost than taking the whole course) and when you satisfy the instructor, you are issued the cert. I don't see doing the same thing for say advanced deco or some overhead environment class, as any different - you are prooving yourself to the agency standards, you just have learned it differently. It's no different than e-learning scuba classes.

Please give a few examples of all these many other more dangerous (than deep air, advanced deco or overhead diving) activities with certification agencies that give you a cert after demonstrating proficiency to the instructor, and don't forget to explain just how one proves proficiency

I'm not saying training isn't important - it certainly is! I'm just saying a person who dives oin the North Atlantic at depths up to say 150 feet should be able to do the same thing in Florida and not have to pay $1000 to earn a card to allow him to do it. He's already spent that money diving and gaining experience.

So are you saying that the North Atlantic dive charters will take you to sites deeper than 130' without an advanced deep cert, but the Florida charters won't? Or maybe you are saying that you dive with a group of experienced deep divers and one or two charters who have known you and your buddies for years take you to deeper than recreational dive sites. How would a similar dive experienced Floridian with no advanced certs and no Northern buddies fare on the North Atlantic deep dive charters?

AFAIK, you can dive deeper than your certs while on vacation, both in Florida and here in Hawaii; rent a boat and pilot yourself. Then you can spend the $1000 on transporting your technical gear, 'cause no one will rent doubles without a technical cert.

 

[pacchill]

What dive did they not let you go on?

 

[rescue15]

I have been diving since the late 1980's in waters from VA north. I have dove as deep as 180 feet and have a fair amount of penetrations ( not pass thru's) under my belt. The group of divers I started diving with here in MD were hanging oxygen for deco before nitrox was offered to rec divers. I have dove doubles, nitrox, and deco profiles. I can manage air better than many of my instructors. I have even had Steve Lombardo (one of Gary Gentile's and Dan Berg's cohorts) offer me a tour of the SanDiego. So why do I need to spend hundreds of dollars to get a card that says I can do tech diving when my logbook already prooves it? I have never been refused a deep dive in the North Atlantic because of the card or lack of card in my pocket - no matter what charter I was on. Call and ask one, you will be surprised by the answer you get.

I was refused a penetration dive of the SP Grove in FL last year because of this. The dive operation didn't even want to look at my log book...only my PADI Rescue card.

As far as more dangerous things than diving - how about Firefighting, police work, mine rescue, confined space rescue, mining and shipboard firefighting (I can't think of anything more dangerous than this and yes I do that)...all of these jobs have mechanisims in them to give their workers credit for life experience...some call it "grandfathering"

With the cards I have in my log book now, I can do a penetration dive off the coast of NY this week but next week in FL all I can do is a pass thru on the Bibb.

As far as prooving proficiency, why don't you ask SDI. I have their Advanced diver card (not the adv adventurer)and don't have the adv nav or deep or night specialties.

There are things that can be done to "grandfather" people into a tech certification. The dive industry just doesn't want to do it because it will reduce their profits.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's my approach to the problem, as to why the problem exists: Put Another Dollar In?

 

[Rainer]

Here's my approach to the problem, as to why the problem exists: Put Another Dollar In?

The vast majority of us can't see that post...

 

[Thalassamania]

The vast majority of us can't see that post...

Sorry, thanks for reminding me.

I was asked about how to handle a situation where a potential student does not have in possession a card that is a prerequisite for a course, when the standard will also accept "or equivalent."

It is not up to the agency to recognize his certs, it's up to the instructor. I never ask candidates for either certs (when there is an "or equivalent" clause) or logs, we just have a conversation about their experience, if they can talk the talk then I have some "skill tests" that are actual honesty tests, if I find them to be honest then I give them the written test for the level they are claiming and a skill test composed of the skill objectives of that level, graded one to five. Three or better on all items and I consider them to be "equivalent" and take them into the course. Why do I do this? Because certs these days aren't worth their weight in Bantha poo-du.

Where the "honesty" test comes from:

The first time I went down to work at the University of Puerto Rico's lab at La Paguera, I was instructed to report to the Dive Locker at 10:00 A.M. Waiting there was the lab Diving Safety Officer, a man who was truly a legend in his own time, Walt Hendrick Sr.

Walt questioned us (there were two of us) closely about our diving background as we carried our gear bags and tanks up over the hill and down onto the dock. We were instructed to put our wet suit booties on and jump into the water beside the dock. Walt walked up and down the dock and continued to talk with us; we needed to swim back and forth to hear him.

Walt took our fins and masks (with snorkels) out of our bags. He put my fins together and pulled my mask over them to hold them together. He tossed them to me and repeated the process with my partner. űut them on, he said. This was a little complicated because when you pulled them apart you had three pieces, each headed in its own direction, plus your hands are now full and with booties on you get no "traction" to tread. I jammed my mask up over my left arm, took one fin in each hand, took a big gulp of air, and resting on the buoyancy of the air in my lungs, held my breath while I got my fins on. Then I put my mask on, my snorkel in my mouth and waited.

My buddy got his gear squared away and Walt said, Á´ee that float over there? He was indicating a crab pot buoy a goodly distance away. "I want you to make a surface dive, make ten kicks underwater, surface for one breath, dive, make 10 kicks underwater, until you reach the float." he said.

I took a breath and dove, ten kicks, take a breath, ten kicks, take a breath, ten kicks, take a breath, ten kicks (this is getting hard), take a breath, ten kicks (I don't know if I can do this), take a breath, ten kicks (I'm done for), take a breath, five kicks (I give up), surface. There's the float, fairly close by. Walt waives for us to return.

We snorkel back on the surface. We stop at the edge of the dock and Walt questions us, "Did you make it?" No, "Did you do ten kicks each time?" All but the last one. "Did you only take one breath each time?" Yes. "OK, get on out, you can dive at the lab." So we got out of the water, packed our gear up, and walked back to the dive locker.

I had a chance to talk to Walt a few days later, DSO to DSO. "Wat was that all about? I asked, I'veh never had a checkout like that, we never even went on SCUBA. Walt smiled. "Here's how it works, he lowered his voice to a conspiratorial tone. "Most of it is misdirection. We had a long talk as you walked to the dock; this gave me two critical pieces of information. The first was who you think you are, the second is what kind of shape your in."

It had been kind of a long walk up and down hill carrying a full gear bag and a tank that we never used. "Now by the time we got to the dock I knew that if you two were, in fact, who you told me you were, I'd have no trouble letting you dive here."

"You both modified your swimming to compensate for the booties, a good sign; you both dealt with the loose gear and getting it on; but most importantly you both told me the truth."

"The truth about what? I asked.

He said, "When you were snorkeling out to the float I could easily tell if you made the same distance on each breath by looking at the ripples; I could easily tell if you took just one breath; I didnÃÕ care if you made it to the float, just that you told the truth about what you actually did. You see I can learn all kinds of things about you just by watching carefully."

"What else did you learn?" I asked.

"Well, when ever you came to the surface and had to talk, you pulled your mask down around your neck. That tells me you're from California and given the number of times you took it off you're either an instructor or you're not very comfortable having a mask on your face."

I'm sure that Walt learned a whole lot more about us than he ever let on. I started going down to the lab at least once a year to work with Walt. The more time I spent with him the more I came to see that there was layer after layer after layer of information that he was able to gather from these simples exercises. I know that I never got the bottom of them all.