considering a double hose reg

[herman]

Thanks Luis. Scotty is local to me and is on my Bonaire trip, who knows maybe SD VIII. How about HP tanks on the PRAM, any issues there? I would think 3500 is ok but what is your take on it?

By the way Luis, there is a package in the mail to you. My latest version of the toy I sent you, now in SS. I like it a lot better, it seems to install easier and so far I have seen no slivers. Let me know what you think.

 

[herman]

question,
you mentioned your suggestion is to get a da and add the phoenix, but then you state the RAM works a lot better ?? Are you suggesting to get a DA because of the price vs a ram, or the quality?

Scotty, the only differnce between a RAM and a DAAM is the nozzle (assemble that holds the HP parts and is the first stage of the reg) is slightly longer and it has a couple of different internal parts inside of the nozzle itself- a balance chamber, an oring and a second spring. Otherwise the regs are identical other than the label. From the outside you have to know what you are looking for to tell the difference. Screw off a DAAM nozzle, screw in a RAM nozzle, change the labels and you just converted a DAAM to a RAM (yea there are some pin differences and internal differences to the nozzles but I am trying to keep it basic). Same goes for converting a DAAM or RAM into a PRAM- swap nozzles and labels and the regs are converted... Granted there is more to tune up but you get the idea. Come over someday and I can pull both apart and show you the differences...I also have a Phoenix nozzle that I can show you as well.

 

[duckbill]

Screw off a DAAM nozzle.............

Herman, I'd like to remind you this is a family oriented forum

Welcome to the club, Scott.
I have my regs well tuned, and don't really notice a whole lot of diference between the DAAM and RAM as far as breathing characteristics for most dives. However, when you start adding variables that make a difference, the RAM does out perform the DAAM, and the more extreme the variable(s), the more the RAM shines. Deep dives, high tank pressures, heavy physical exertion all give the RAM the edge. But, if most of your dives are within recreational limits, you are using a cylinder pressure suitable for the DAAM, and your activities are limited to sight-seeing, then the DAAM is just fine.

Personally, most of my fresh water dives are on a Mistral. When I head to the ocean I prefer my DAAM or Mossback Mklll (which is balanced like the RAM). My RAM mostly sits there looking pretty (not for sale). When I run the DAAM, I usually have an SPG on a banjo, and an octopus and power inflator hose split off of the hookah port. If I'm diving solo, I often dispense with the octopus, and many times I even omit the power inflator hose and go manual inflate on the horsecollar so I don't have to deal with a bunch of hoses that I don't really need.

It's all fun. Now you have the whole Summer ahead of you to try it out some more and figure out just what tickles your fancy. You are fortunate to have Herman there nearby to help guide you. Will you choose single stage, or double stage? Balanced, or non-balanced? Straight traditional vintage, or with banjo and hookah port adapter, or modern Phoenix upgrade? Or, like we all tend to end up doing, one of each? Keep us posted!

 

[Luis H]

Thanks Luis. Scotty is local to me and is on my Bonaire trip, who knows maybe SD VIII. How about HP tanks on the PRAM, any issues there? I would think 3500 is ok but what is your take on it?

By the way Luis, there is a package in the mail to you. My latest version of the toy I sent you, now in SS. I like it a lot better, it seems to install easier and so far I have seen no slivers. Let me know what you think.

Thanks Herman

I am looking forward to the new tool. I am sure it is going to work great. The other one works fine, but SS will make it better. You should not see any galling either since the friction force is light.

The Phoenix RAM can handle all the same pressures as any modern Aqua Lung regulator can. I don’t have access to their engineering calculations or test data, but my own calculations tell me that 4000 psi and even 5000 psi should not be a problem.

The yoke is not an issue and the balancing chamber O-ring has a back-up ring to avoid extrusion at high pressures. I do have one Phoenix set up with a DIN, but I only use it with my European Poseidon tanks. I have absolutely no reservations using a yoke at any available Scuba tank pressures.

My wife uses a PRAM many times with her 3442 psi tanks and it always performs the same. Her valves are DIN convertible, but she uses a yoke.


BTW Herman, I got my wife and me new Tech Express back-packs/BC and I am looking forward to trying it. It does look extremely vintage friendly. I got the softer Mil-Spec harness straps. We will see how they work.
I will try to call you tonight. I have a couple of questions about how you have them set up.

 

[Luis H]

It's all fun. Now you have the whole Summer ahead of you to try it out some more and figure out just what tickles your fancy. You are fortunate to have Herman there nearby to help guide you. Will you choose single stage, or double stage? Balanced, or non-balanced? Straight traditional vintage, or with banjo and hookah port adapter, or modern Phoenix upgrade? Or, like we all tend to end up doing, one of each? Keep us posted!

I agree... we all really need at least one of each.
I like playing with my Mistral, my DA Aqua Master, etc.
For most diving (including traveling) I do prefer one of my Phoenix Royal Aqua Master.

 

[halocline]

Most DA Aqua Master can be adjusted to breath very well, but could never be fine tuned to the level of a RAM. The precision of the fine tuning that can be performed with the IP in a RAM can never be matched by a DA. Also a RAM has a larger volcano orifice which helps in IP recovery during the breathing cycle.

THis has been my experience pretty much exactly. In particular, the IP recovery makes a big difference to me. It results in stronger flow throughout the breath. I have a feeling it's not only related to orifice size, but also seat design and the fact that the spring force on the seat is lower during breathing. If you're slightly inverted, maybe working a little harder, and want a nice deep breath, the RAM nozzle, at least the two that I'm quite familiar with, provide better air flow than the two DA nozzles that I started out with on the same regs.

It is true that other than the nozzle, the regs are identical, but that's a little like saying other than the engine, two cars are identical. The nozzle is the working part of the first stage. The 2nd stages are identical.

If you get a DA, maybe take a few dives on it, and get the phoenix conversion, then you too can experience the difference and have an opinion on another thread like this one that is sure to come up in the future.

Original RAMs are typically much more expensive than DAs due to the collector's value of them. Often the price difference between a DA and a RAM is big enough so that you could buy the phoenix nozzle ($180?) and end up spending about the same.

 

[Scotttyd]

You have already gotten some decent advice.

The only thing I would be careful with is using a DAAM with a banjo fitting on a 3442 psi tank, especially with a DIN convertible valve. It may work OK most of the time, but with the convertible valves it doesn’t always work well.

What is usually the issue with the inserts? Do they just not fit well?

 

[halocline]

My RAM long yoke (same as long yoke for the DA) will not fit on my convertible valve with a banjo fitting. I never use that tank with the RAM so it doesn't bother me. On my tank the issue is that the valve is too big to fit both the banjo fitting and yoke. The older valves on my other tanks work fine with it.

If you were to buy a banjo fitting, hookah port nut, and a 3 way adapter you'd be close to halfway of the price for the phoenix nozzle. Then you get all the ports, a much stronger yoke for HP tanks, and the balanced, high flow nozzle. It's really worth it once you get to the point where you enjoy doublehose diving.

Most doublehose aficionados end up with several regs, so be warned! It can be addictive. There are some threads here and on vdh that will give you an idea of how dedicated the group of vintage divers is. Just be glad you're not jonesing for voit!

 

[spectrum]

What is usually the issue with the inserts? Do they just not fit well?

I haven't use a banjo on my Themo convertible valves but I have noticed an issue. If you tighten the inserts they will cock in the threads and not be perfectly square to the back of the valve causing erratic yoke connections. The solution is to insert the long end of the key into the insert and use only your thumb and forefinger to tighten while holding the short leg. In other words, tighten lightly. This lets the O-ring square up in the valve without wracking.

I can imagine in a stacking arrangement such as the banjo application that this would be highlighted. It may be that even with careful seating the tolerance stack-up challenges the banjo seating.

Pete

 

[Nemrod]

I have had excellent service with the banjo fittings at pressures up to 3,000 psi and on a variety of valves including the no insert Thermo brand valves and the various clones. But there are valves in common usage that just simply do not work well with a banjo fitting. In the travel world where you are renting tanks, you just never know for sure what you might have, therefore, a Phoenix conversion makes sense as well as being able to support modern BCs and other equipment deemed necessary in the modern world, often for good reason and with little fuss.

N